Betty Laser Ranging Call Outs Question

[Fakum]

While flying the Apache a lot, I often get close to the AO that has a lot of different enemy vehicles/troops, and I often get calls “Laser Ranging-12 O’Clock” I find that these are typically an enemy Tank. What I have been searching for is, to be more definitive, which specific Tanks have the capability to Lase me and fire a missile? Additionally, what else besides the Tanks can I possibly get a call for that can Lase me and fire a missile? I suspect that there isn’t a tremendous amount?

 

Thanks,

[NeedzWD40]

BMP-2, T-72, T-90, T-80, M1, M2 -- virtually all armored vehicles from 1970 onward have laser rangefinders. It'd take some research and a bit of memorization to know which tanks can fire missiles at you. Bear in mind, even vehicles like BMP-1s without lasers can launch missiles at you. Generally speaking, all T-72s and derivatives (including T-90), T-80, and BMP-3 will be the most common threats where you have to assume a laser indicates a missile is close behind. Even without missiles, they'll range for their main guns if you're close enough.

In addition, you'll get this from certain aircraft as well, like Ka-50, MiG-27K, Su-17, Su-25, aircraft with TGP, etc. so it's not always a sure assumption that ground vehicles are lasing you.

[Fakum]

Thanks for the response, I was on wiki before I posted up, looking up armament etc,,, wasnt really getting what I needed/wanted out of it, along with other searches. I want to also understand the methods in which they each are "guiding" the missile. I typically heed a warning and take evasive action along with a pop of Flare and Chaff out of reaction, but I want to understand a bit better so I dont waste either if I dont have to.

[NeedzWD40]

The only way to dodge most of these is by evasive action and even then, the AI has magic guidance for them (such as the BMP-1 will never lose track of your aircraft with the manually guided AT-3). If you suspect it's a ground launched MCLOS/SACLOS missile, assume the AI will maintain a forever track of you and immediately attempt to run the missile out of energy and/or get behind cover. Also, if you're going fast enough, they won't launch missiles at you, as there's a threshold from which they "believe" they can hit. My experience says this is about 70 knots or so.

I as a player will never be able to keep an AT-6/AT-9 from the Mi-24P on a fast maneuvering target while simultaneously turning cold, but the AI always will. Keep this in mind when comparing real world data vs DCS performance.

[Fakum]

@NeedzWD40, this is part of what info I was trying to track down yesterday. So if I understand you correctly, the BMP's and Russian Tanks all fire LOS (optically guided) missiles? So dumping Chaff and Flares is useless, correct? That is the meat of what I am trying to get a grasp of. (Manpads = infrared Missile, so use Flares).

[NeedzWD40]

3 hours ago, Fakum said:

So if I understand you correctly, the BMP's and Russian Tanks all fire LOS (optically guided) missiles? So dumping Chaff and Flares is useless, correct?

Yes, the vast majority use SACLOS missile systems of the beam riding variety. Some have MCLOS like the BMP-1, but the difference in DCS' AI world is moot. As long as they can see you and keep their sights on you, the missile has a high probability of hitting. There are no countermeasures except movement, cover, and distance. You see this quite frequently in DCS when BMP-1s will absolutely pummel AI helicopters that try to do hovering fire within their engagement envelopes.

[Fakum]

Thanks for the feedback sir! Very much appreciated!

[jubuttib]

On 5/5/2024 at 2:01 AM, NeedzWD40 said:

My experience says this is about 70 knots or so.

Important to not that this doesn't apply to Jamsheed with his RPG-7, he is perfectly happy shooting helicopter going completely perpendicular at 90 knots, and hitting it...

On 5/5/2024 at 7:24 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

Yes, the vast majority use SACLOS missile systems of the beam riding variety.

Huh, I thought a lot of them used wire guided ones. Learned something new today!

[NeedzWD40]

21 minutes ago, jubuttib said:

Important to not that this doesn't apply to Jamsheed with his RPG-7, he is perfectly happy shooting helicopter going completely perpendicular at 90 knots, and hitting it...

Huh, I thought a lot of them used wire guided ones. Learned something new today!

Scootin' Steve/Jamsheed is an anomaly. He is not of this world. He sees before and after. His eyes are filled with hatred and death.

----

Wire guided/radio guided/beam riding are just different ways of getting to the same thing. You can have a MCLOS radio guided missile (AT-2/9M17) or a SACLOS one (AT-6/AT-9). A BMP-2's AT-5 is SACLOS but also wire guided, same as the BGM-71 TOW. The difference between the two is that SACLOS is typically automated in some form, with a system to keep the missile on target (ie the center of the crosshairs) while MCLOS requires the operator to manually steer the missile themselves.

[LorenLuke]

1 hour ago, NeedzWD40 said:

Scootin' Steve/Jamsheed is an anomaly. He is not of this world. He sees before and after. His eyes are filled with hatred and death.

----

Wire guided/radio guided/beam riding are just different ways of getting to the same thing. You can have a MCLOS radio guided missile (AT-2/9M17) or a SACLOS one (AT-6/AT-9). A BMP-2's AT-5 is SACLOS but also wire guided, same as the BGM-71 TOW. The difference between the two is that SACLOS is typically automated in some form, with a system to keep the missile on target (ie the center of the crosshairs) while MCLOS requires the operator to manually steer the missile themselves.

Except the fact that the TOW has an IR strobe on the back that the sensor on the launcher uses to steer the projectile. This means the only way the target knows is to either see the missile or have the missile miss, and the target sees the strobe. 

By contrast, a lot of (though not exclusively) the Soviet and successor stuff shoots a laser beam that the target (aiming it has the proper warning sensor) CAN detect and see, as the back of the missile itself basically has a laser interferometer to guide it on to the target.

So while the practice of how to aim a SACLOS missile is consistent bergen the two types, the actual mechanism, including what something like a Hokum or Apache can pick up a a target, are very different.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

11 hours ago, LorenLuke said:

TOW

Although the TOW got a laser rangefinder in later variants (ITAS-TOW). Just not sure how important this feature is. Never tested the TOW against me in DCS.

[LorenLuke]

5 hours ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

Although the TOW got a laser rangefinder in later variants (ITAS-TOW). Just not sure how important this feature is. Never tested the TOW against me in DCS.

You might get a singular lase ranging blip in real life IF they use it, but that's wildly different from a laser beam that HAS to be on the entire time the missile is flying towards the target.

[NeedzWD40]

20 hours ago, LorenLuke said:

Except the fact that the TOW has an IR strobe on the back that the sensor on the launcher uses to steer the projectile. This means the only way the target knows is to either see the missile or have the missile miss, and the target sees the strobe. 

By contrast, a lot of (though not exclusively) the Soviet and successor stuff shoots a laser beam that the target (aiming it has the proper warning sensor) CAN detect and see, as the back of the missile itself basically has a laser interferometer to guide it on to the target.

So while the practice of how to aim a SACLOS missile is consistent bergen the two types, the actual mechanism, including what something like a Hokum or Apache can pick up a a target, are very different.

If we're picking nits, then both TOW and AT-5 are wire guided with a strobe out the back. They're still SACLOS missiles involving some effort on the part of the operator to keep the target in constraints.

[Marshallman]

On 5/5/2024 at 5:24 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

Yes, the vast majority use SACLOS missile systems of the beam riding variety. Some have MCLOS like the BMP-1, but the difference in DCS' AI world is moot. As long as they can see you and keep their sights on you, the missile has a high probability of hitting. There are no countermeasures except movement, cover, and distance. You see this quite frequently in DCS when BMP-1s will absolutely pummel AI helicopters that try to do hovering fire within their engagement envelopes.

Blown away by your depth of Knowledge!