Crunch Time! VR upgrade, choosing GPU + PSU

[Nightdare]

Alright, time to put a little upgrade in the system

First issue GPU

7900XTX or 4080 Super

 

XTX Pro's: Cheaper, better rasterization, 50% more Memory, also higher bus-size, 3x8pin powerconnector, DP 2.1

Cons: Inferior RT, high power consumption/temps, slower memorychips, lesser performing FSR

The XTX looks better in raw power, but that also comes at more power/temps, it's memory advantage is somewhat negated by its speed, but improved by its bus, then again, that performance seems to be more dependent on which GPU a game developer prefers

-

4080s Pro's: Better RT, faster memory, better DLSS, lower power consumption/temps, 1x 16pin connector, good drivers, better game support

Cons: Price (entry price = almost top tier XTX), RT is a performance hog, DLSS is a crutch, 12vhpwr is 'sketchy', 16gb memory while 12gb is already minimum, DP 1.4

The 4080s looks more futureproof with RT/DLSS/12vHPWR, but it's 16gb memory won't last as long as the XTX 24gb, it's be a non-issue if not until as little as 18 months ago, did anybody complain about 8Gb cards

 

 

Nvidia's RT is a generation ahead, but it's a performance killer for all but the 4090 if you want to run decent FPS, and will remain so for a while, advancing as GPU's advance

FSR and DLSS are fakers, not inprovers, it's upscaling, not optimizing, neither really tickles my fancy, would be a nice way to 'improve' lower cards, but those can't handle it well

I'd rather see that computing power dedicated to the actual image generating

 

...so, I'm kinda undecided on that one

Wonder if anyone has something to add

 

 

But bigger issue is PSU, I got an 850w currently, but it's not equipped for 3x8pin (or 1x12v), besides that, I got quite a bit of other peripherals asking for juice

So I'm aiming at 1000W, 2x8pin MB taps, 4+ peripherals taps and of course power for and/or/either 3x8pins or 1x16pins, roughly around the $200/€200 mark

And compared to GPU's, here I can't see the forest from the trees, only 'nice to have' would be if it's compatible with cablemod, but I never 'needed' those cables

So I definitely could use some tips for a new PSU

[LucShep]

I'm sure you've done your homework and all the research. But there are a number of factors to think about beyond the price and performance.
I'd weight ownership experience over anything else, honestly. It's still a lot of money invested in a single HW component. 

I'll start by the end, saying that both are absolutely excelent GPUs but, between the two (if I could afford it), I'd always chose the RTX4080S. 

For me there's only one advantage to the AMD RX7900XTX - price!  That can be the decisive factor for some... 
Other than that, I really don't see any positives added to the big 24GB VRAM spec, to outweigh the cons and make it worthy over the RTX4080S (16GB but it's faster GDDR6X).

AMD Radeon drivers have been good lately, but one thing can not be denied - NVidia is still far more capable, and it shows also in this aspect.
Once you realize that the NVidia driver division on itself is nearly as big as the whole AMD company, it starts to make sense...

The major deal breaker for me with the RX7900XTX is the ludicrously higher power consumption (some models go up to ~450W, versus the ~300W of the RTX4080S).
Which translates to higher temperatures, in the core, in the memory and hotspot. This is a really, really important factor if you intend to play games at around (or above) the ~90% GPU usage for extended time periods, and expecting to use it for years on end (undervolting really becomes a must to avoid long term issues). 
A side note, the RTX4080/S has been reliable with the silly single NVidia's 12-Pin Power Connector, something one can not say about the RTX4090 24GB (which should use two!).

Heck, even AMD themselves seem to have abandoned the design of RDNA3 (RX7000 series) because it actually didn't meet its performance expectations, resulting in the big core frequency power curve going out of control. The upcoming RDNA4 (RX8000 series) later this year will be a simple "refresh" with no high-end models (so, expected to be a downgrade, and it is telling), with RDNA5 (in late 2025?) being a completely new architecture to supposedly fight back.

I really doubt the rasterization performance of the RX7900XTX is better than the RTX4080S (and in that possibility, at what temps and wattage?).
If that much, the performance is on par - it's give or take depending on game title (if without RT).
And if it's DCS, I think it's already a given that it still works better with NVidia, especially noticeable in VR.

Once you also realize that the price difference may not be so big when already paying that much (around 1100,00€, depending on region), it's worth getting the one that should provide the higher compatibility -and least annoyances- in a much wider variety of use scenarios and games (NVidia better here), the better temps and power consumption, the better features (DLSS and RT in games is not uncommon now), and the better resale value.  Weighing pros and cons, I think the RTX4080S is the better pick of the two.
Doesn't mean that the RX7900XTX isn't a tremendously good GPU, because it is. But the RX7900XT 20GB now seems a better deal at 700,00€(ish), IMO.

Lastly, and to finalize this wall of text ( lol).... we're at the end of this generation of 2022 GPUs. There is a new upcoming generation of GPUs to be released later this year.
I know the upcoming RTX 5000 series -for your case maybe the RTX5080- is still a long way (very late summer, for the least) but perhaps it's worth waiting for?

Edited May 17, 2024 by LucShep

[LucShep]

About the PSU.
Honestly, I'd pick a quality 80+ Gold (or better) 1200W ATX3.0+ PSU, instead of the 1000W.
It may seem overkill now, but it isn't. The price difference is not so big, it's worth it in the longer term.

Two that I like are the Bequiet! Pure Power 12M 1200W and the Corsair RM1200X SHIFT, for different reasons.

 - The Bequiet Pure Power 12M 1200W is awesome for the price, a great example of good quality without having to pay a fortune.
 - The Corsair RM1200X SHIFT is also good quality, and the peculiar "shifted layout" makes it great. It provides easier/faster building (or changes) due to much better access to the connections (which are put out at the side, instead of the back). It doesn't work with every ATX case (see reviews of this PSU) but it does work with most. 

Both are "Tier A" ranked PSUs (high-end in PSU tier lists, for example the one at Cultists) and are within your budget, at 200,00€ (+/-).

Edited May 17, 2024 by LucShep

[Aapje]

I think that ray tracing should play very little role in the decision, also not to be 'future proof'. Nvidia has touted ray tracing since 2018 and in the 6 years since we've seen rather few games where ray tracing was really good and none of those were simming games. The people who got a 2000-series card with the idea that they are future proof due to their ray tracing ability, now have cards that are too slow to run newer games with ray tracing.

What is marketed as ray tracing is actually a very simplified version with so many limitations that it is very hard to make it look much better than a rasterized game.

The actual proper ray tracing is marketed as path tracing, but this is so demanding that even a 4090 is too slow for current games that you want to play at a decent FPS and future games will just be even more demanding, so no future proofing there.

And I think that a 1000 watt power supply is plenty now and very unlikely to become too little in the foreseeable future. The total system consumption of a basic 4090 system is less than 600 watts and if you look at what technology they are working on like backside power delivery, then it seems that a lot of focus will be put on efficiency. I can only see them selling hugely power-hungry GPUs if they ever figure out how to combine multiple GPUs in one package using chiplets, without getting all the stuttering and instability issues that you had in the past with SLI. That is a very hard problem to solve.

But even then, would you really want to buy a video card that makes your system use close to 1000 watts of power? It will require a complicated cooling setup and will pump so much heat into your room that it's going to be very uncomfortable..

[LucShep]

11 hours ago, Aapje said:

I think that ray tracing should play very little role in the decision, also not to be 'future proof'. Nvidia has touted ray tracing since 2018 and in the 6 years since we've seen rather few games where ray tracing was really good and none of those were simming games. The people who got a 2000-series card with the idea that they are future proof due to their ray tracing ability, now have cards that are too slow to run newer games with ray tracing.

What is marketed as ray tracing is actually a very simplified version with so many limitations that it is very hard to make it look much better than a rasterized game.

The actual proper ray tracing is marketed as path tracing, but this is so demanding that even a 4090 is too slow for current games that you want to play at a decent FPS and future games will just be even more demanding, so no future proofing there.
 

That's true. The viability or possible future necessity of RT (and alternatives) is of no importance if there's no intention to use it to begin with.
I too agree (to some extent) that it may not be a factor for GPU selection.
And oh yes, just forget Path Tracing...  pretty as it is, we're just not ready for it yet (maybe in a decade?!). 

But, and as much as I loathe Nvidia for bringing in closed/exclusive tech - and using it to justify a premium on their GPUs - the truth is they have been (albeit veeeery slooowly) making some noticeable strides in the tech.

For example, one recent experience with Cyberpunk2077, using DLSS 3.7 Ray Reconstruction, on a friend's new PC, which did show great graphical improvements, compared to not using any of it, and very good performance.
I certainly wasn't expecting it to make such a difference in visuals, versus not having any of that stuff. 
Of course YMMV but, got to say, for someone as myself who never gave a hoot about that, it left quite a good impression.

This is something that AMD simply can't do at this point.

Even if unrelated to DCS and VR, it's the kind of stuff that the OP may wish to check out at some point later on.
And who knows if DCS (and other sims) gets any of this stuff at some point (we recently got DLSS).
 

11 hours ago, Aapje said:

And I think that a 1000 watt power supply is plenty now and very unlikely to become too little in the foreseeable future. The total system consumption of a basic 4090 system is less than 600 watts and if you look at what technology they are working on like backside power delivery, then it seems that a lot of focus will be put on efficiency. I can only see them selling hugely power-hungry GPUs if they ever figure out how to combine multiple GPUs in one package using chiplets, without getting all the stuttering and instability issues that you had in the past with SLI. That is a very hard problem to solve.

But even then, would you really want to buy a video card that makes your system use close to 1000 watts of power? It will require a complicated cooling setup and will pump so much heat into your room that it's going to be very uncomfortable..

The point is not just higher maximum power of the PSU (sure, 1000W is plenty capable, though 1200W is better) but the higher efficiency of the PSU as well.

It varies with what's running (CPU + GPU + RAM + storage + fans + non self powered peripherals) but I've recently seen plenty high-end gaming PCs working around (and over) ~600W during some intensive gaming sessions. Granted, they're not the norm (and a few were overclocked systems), but...

The optimal efficiency for a power supply is typically achieved when it is operating at half (50%) of its maximum load rating. When the load further rises, the efficiency tends to be lower, and gradually sets to the lowest.
Why does it even matter?  Because the lower the efficiency, the more you're pulling from the wall socket to provide the PSU's output.

A 1200W PSU price is usually just ~25,00€ more on average than a 1000W of same PSU model.
That's a pretty good deal, I think. And totally worth it on the longer run.

Edited May 17, 2024 by LucShep

[Aapje]

Power supplies tend to be most inefficient at low load, so getting a bigger power supply to gain efficiency at high load may just cause you to have more wasted energy while you use the PC for browsing.

And power supplies are not all equal, so I would personally suggest looking at reviews and not be overly focused on the wattage. The official wattage they put on the box is in many cases just a marketing choice anyway, and quality brands tend to underspec their power supply's, so a power supply rated at 750 from a poor brand can actually be worse than a power supply rated at 650 Watt from a quality brand.

Also keep in mind that the more wattage the PSU supports, the bigger it tends to be. So make sure that whatever you get, fits in the case.

Edited May 17, 2024 by Aapje

[LucShep]

Sure, but at low load the wattage pulled from the wall socket is so low (30W~60W?) that 1/2 a dozen % of efficiency loss there isn't anything of notice, and why it's never mentioned for a gaming desktop PC.
Whereas at higher loads (like when gaming, more so in VR) is where it can make a bigger difference.

I absolutely agree that looking at reviews (and PSU Tier ratings) is important, before pulling the trigger on a PSU. 
Also, we're starting from a principal that the PSU chosen here is to be a good quality model (otherwise no point recommending).

The size difference between 1000W and 1200W is not really an issue for 99% of PSU models for gaming PC ATX cases.
You'll find that many highly rated 1200W PSUs have similar, if not same size as the 1000W versions. When they aren't, it's usually less than 1.0 inch (2.5cm) longer in case size lenght. 

[Nightdare]

Thanks for the feedback all

 

While I could wait for the RTX5 or XTX8, I consider the market for waiting on improved pc parts "chasing the horizon", there will always be next gen

5-series will probably be out just before christmas, sincerely doubt that new generation will be equal in price anyway and my 3060ti is running hard to keep VR performance up

 

Yeah it seems the price is the biggest draw for looking at the XTX, All that power, all that memory, yet only in select titles an advantage

Support for/from AMD seems indeed somewhat lackluster, and with latest news, I get a "Gravis Ultrasound" feeling looking at AMD's GPU market/viability (Yes I'm that old)

 

As for the PSU's: I cannot use either in my case, too large, I'm stuck at 150x140mm

Basically, I'm seeing the Thermaltake Toughpower GF A3 1050w/1200w or Seasonic Focus 1000w

 

[LucShep]

On 5/18/2024 at 4:59 AM, Nightdare said:

As for the PSU's: I cannot use either in my case, too large, I'm stuck at 150x140mm

Basically, I'm seeing the Thermaltake Toughpower GF A3 1050w/1200w or Seasonic Focus 1000w
 

Well, at least it's not a big problem at all, because those are okay (and positively rated in Tier lists).
Just make sure they're the latest versions, ATX 3.0 & PCIe 5.0 ready (and 12VHPWR connector included).

The Seasonic Focus GX 1000w is pretty good for the price, and I'd favor it over the other two.
It's also very silent even with the fan ramping up. Nevermind about the silent mode (different fan curves with a button on its back) because you won't need it.

The Thermaltake Toughpower GF A3 1050w and 1200w are also good for the price, but not as silent (agressive fan curve).
There's the advantage here with the possibility of a 1200w selection.


BTW, if it's so for the PSU, is there possible clearance issues (space limitations) inside the case for the GPU?
If so, it's important to chose a GPU model according to that size limit.

Edited May 25, 2024 by LucShep

[Nightdare]

33 minutes ago, LucShep said:

The Thermaltake Toughpower GF A3 1050w and 1200w are also good for the price, but not as silent (aggressive fan curve).
There's the advantage here with the possibility of a 1200w selection.

I mostly got my eye on that one (1200w), mainly because it sports 1 extra 6-pin peripheral connection over the Seasonic

I never cared about noise from the PC, worn out fans excluding , my GPU is running 100% fans when playing DCS anyway

 

Quote

BTW, if it's so for the PSU, is there possible clearance issues (space limitations) inside the case for the GPU?
If so, it's important to chose a GPU model according to that size limit.

 

I got a TT view 37 with an aftermarket PSU shroud, the case is roomy and allows a vertical GPU

I know there might be clearance issues for the GPU because of the AIO I use, but I can improvise a GPU mount, the cable pass-through in the case AND the PSU shroud are things I can't work around

[LucShep]

44 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

I got a TT view 37 with an aftermarket PSU shroud, the case is roomy and allows a vertical GPU

I know there might be clearance issues for the GPU because of the AIO I use, but I can improvise a GPU mount, the cable pass-through in the case AND the PSU shroud are things I can't work around

Thermaltake says the View37 has the GPU length limitation at 410mm (note: without front fan!). 

Better take a tape-measure and see the real lenght yourself, I say.
 

Edited May 18, 2024 by LucShep

[Nightdare]

4 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Thermaltake says the View37 has the GPU length limitation at 410mm (note: without front fan!). 

Better take a tape-measure and see the real lenght yourself, I say.
 

 

There are no 4080's that exceed 360mm (Not even the Gigabyte Aorus, and that thing is friggin huge) But I got my AIO radiator mounted to the back panel which leaves me less than 300mm clearance for a horizontal mounted card

So I either relocate the radiator, or get a 3rd party vertical bracket

(The TT37 only allows 2-slot cards to be placed vertically, which would limit it to the 2- slot Inno3d air cooled 4080 or any liquid cooled card that sports a 2-slot bracket)

[Nodak]

Some of the newer 1000+ PSU's have the special single cable direct to the 16 pin format power hungry GPU's, it's 16 pin on both ends and eliminates the triple or quad cords with its own adapter.  A real life and space saver and they're already rated for 600W.  Makes for a nice clean build.

[Nightdare]

Bit the bullet

Really thought hard about an XTX Asrock Taichi, but Nvidia never gave me any troubles, so I'll stick with what works

 

Went with an MSI GeForce RTX 4080 Super Gaming X Slim + TT Toughpower GF A3 1200w

It's actual 3 slots, not 3 slot bracket+some added cooling shroud (thought about the Inno3d 2-slot, since that wouldn't need any repositioning in my case, but in tests, that seems to perform less than FE and also runs somewhat hotter)

Also, some reviews mentioned that the MSI had quite good build quality (PCB wise), 1  cable 12vHpwr also means less clutter

Maybe DLSS will exceed my low expectations, it might help a bit in longevity, as for RT,...well, perhaps when playing WH40K or something

Thought about getting the Suprim, but put the difference in a Thermal Grizzly Wireview (To take some stress off the cable), and an aftermarket vertical mount

 

The TT PSU, as mentioned: because has the connections, power and dimensions I wanted

 

Hopefully card and psu will arrive tomorrow and we can go through the horror of cable management again