How to win at BFM in the Mighty F-4E Phantom

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 minutes ago, Snappy said:

Probably just me being dumb, but now I’m confused: Why does radius increase on the way up and decrease on the way down?  

I thought given a more or less constant pull ( given enough G available) the radius decreases as speed decreases on the way up, reaches a minimum at the apex of the egg and slowly increases again as speed builds on the way down?

 

I was just thinking the same thing. Essentially backwards.

The function of a high yo yo is to use the vertical to reduce your effective turn radius while maintaining your overall energy. Used when the bandit has a smaller turn radius at that instant in time, for whatever reason. 

Going up reduces turn radius(relative to the bandit) by geometry (moving your turn circle out of plane), and adding God's G while storing potential energy. 

 

[Phantom12]

Poorly worded on my part. With the lift vector above the horizon for a given turn gravity will hurt turn performance (rate and radius), and vice versa in the 2nd half of the turn with the lift vector below the horizon. As you mention airpseed can have a big effect on radius. In this case for a nose to tail turn reduced radius doesnt help you as much as the reduced turn rate hurts you. For a nose to nose turn like in the picture you can of course exploit out of plane geometry and reduced airspeed to create a very small radius and gain an advantage.

But there are a number of reasons why flying exactly that maneuver in the picture probably wont work out like it does in that example. Its riskier than the more co-planar angles tactics Shaw lays out in the 1v1 similar opponents chapter, and I suspect that's why he recommends those instead of something like that picture. I don't want to try and re-hash the whole book but in short I think being slow at the top at time "3" gives the enemy a good opportunity to start using energy tactics against you, and most opponents, even if they dont know what they are doing will probably just turn at you rather than staying totally horizontal, taking away the vertical separation used to reposition behind the opponent between times "4" and "5".

[Kalasnkova74]

I know high yo-yos are promoted with the F-4, but my two cents is they should be avoided in solo engagements. 

Remember, most Phantom II tactics manuals are written with the assumption of two-ship (or more) flights. A high yo-yo puts the offensive F-4 in a position to maintain energy , while the wingman is coming back into the fight…..…

…so when (not if) the squared away bandit pulls up to counter the high yo-yo once the F-4commits to the dive, the engaged F-4 can separate while #2 can press. If it’s a 1v1, the Phantom IMO should avoid a yo-yo or separate if the bandit counters, because if they counter it well you’ll be defensive after their defensive pull-up takes the bandit behind the F-4s 3/9 line. 

[Phantom12]

It should be mentioned that there is no yo-yo in the world that will allow an F-4 to overcome a significant turn performance disadvantage. Even against a similar opponent they wont gain you anything without trading something else in.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Shaw (and any BFM discussion) is a snapshot in time, an example relevant for that particular moment. A BFM engagement is a moving picture, rapidly changing. Its impossible to say "Do a yo-yo in the Phantom or the opposite".

The difference between primary flight maneuvers (rolls, loops, etc) and BFM is the former is an airshow and the latter is done in reference to the target (bandit). Your choice of BFM has to be based upon what the bandit is doing, is capable of and will likely do next. Every maneuver is in your arsenal, ready to go, when appropriate. 

The goal of a BFM engagement is to arrive in the WEZ long enough to employ the weapon. You do what is required to get there while denying the bandit from doing it to you.

We have a long list of maneuvers with names in BFM but there are really only two, roll and pull. Every "named" BFM is a series of those two things hooked up in series.

If you arrive on the bandit turn circle with lots of closure, rolling to point the lift vector out of plane up and pulling will kill off that closure and allow you to align your turn circle with his and then rolling to put the lift vector in lead and pulling will keep you there as the nose comes down. It works for that situation and got named the "high yo yo", mainly to function as a brevity word for a long sentence.

Doing the same maneuver without lots of closure is doomed to fail.

You really shouldn't think in terms of specific maneuvers in the fight. Your thinking should be much more granular and aimed at solving your immediate range, angle and aspect problem while monitoring how the bandit is reacting.

Edited May 28, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[CrazyGman]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Shaw (and any BFM discussion) is a snapshot in time, an example relevant for that particular moment. A BFM engagement is a moving picture, rapidly changing. Its impossible to say "Do yo-yo in the Phantom or the opposite".

The difference between primary flight maneuvers (rolls, loops, etc) and BFM is the former is an airshow and the latter is done in reference to the target (bandit). Your choice of BFM has to be based upon the what the bandit is doing, is capable of and will likely do next. Every maneuver is in your arsenal, ready to go, when appropriate. 

The goal of a BFM engagement is to arrive in the WEZ long enough to employ the weapon. You do what is required to get there while denying the bandit from doing it to you.

We have a long list of maneuvers with names in BFM but there are really only two, roll and pull. Every "named" BFM is a series of those two things hooked up in series.

If you arrive on the bandit turn circle with lots of closure, rolling to point the lift vector out of plane up and pulling will kill off that closure and allow you to align your turn circle with his and then rolling to put the lift vector in lead and pulling will keep you there as the nose comes down. It works for that situation and got named the "high yo yo", mainly to function as a brevity word for a long sentence.

Doing the same maneuver without lots of closure is doomed to fail.

You really shouldn't think in terms of specific maneuvers in the fight. Your thinking should be much more granular and aimed at solving your immediate range, angle and aspect problem while monitoring how the bandit is reacting.

A 100% this. Don't think of it as specific manuvers. Think of it as what is my vector speed and energy, and what is my oppenents vectory speed and energy, anticipate and learn what they can do, and what their current manuvers are doing to affect the states mentioned above.

This only really can happen with lots and lots of practice. One of the best suggestions I have is get comfortable having your oppenent not be directly in the front glass. When they are right in front of you with you behnd them it's because you have now outflown them, and can employ weapons, but to get into that position you likely had to keep tally on them generally 45 degress off the centerline to set it up.

Most people scramble to get their oppenent center hud as quick as possible and mess up thier vectors and therefore kill their speed and energy in the process. It like auto racing. Go slow...to go Fast.

Speed is life, but it will often give you enough rope to hang yourself with as well in a dogfight...so really it should be "managing your speed" is life

Edited May 28, 2024 by CrazyGman

[primus_TR]

On 5/26/2024 at 12:43 AM, lxsapper said:

Like this?

 

 

I'm by far not the best BFM pilot out there, my gun aim sucks most of the time, in this particular fight I lost control of closure 1 time, but I had already put some rounds on the bandit. Definitely doable.

Thank you for that video. It was very informative and inspirational  Almost made me believe that I too can emerge victorious in a dogfight in the F4E. I am impressed how you never lost sight of the Mig. I think close-range visibility issues, be it for poor eye sight, lack of concentration, DCS limitations, hardware limitations, etc. account for a significant portion of complaints about the AI. With labels on, my success rate quadruples. In any case, great energy preservation, great flying. Thank you again for a very informative video. 

[Victory205]

On 5/27/2024 at 11:36 AM, Phantom12 said:

Thankyou for your kind words. Im glad if my ramblings are helpful to people here or serve to further the discussion.

 

I attached the file to this post, otherwise it can be found directly at this link: https://discord.com/channels/743133715672072192/1092582325591740516/1092610588162654280

All credit for these goes to Contact Light on the DCS dogfighters discord. Hope he doesn't mind me posting them here but you can find them in the user files with a google search as well.

Here is the chart for the F-4Subsonic_Energy_Maneuverability_Diagrams_for_DCS_202304.pdf

 

Sea Level charts are not as useful because the Ps curves tend to get flat, even more so for high TW aircraft. The real charts are OK for comparing max speeds, but sea level charts make it difficult to ascertain targeted sustained turn velocities. FWIW, we typically used 15,000 for comparison, if you take a look, you’ll instantly see why. 

For an out of plane extension and reversal, perhaps the most important aspect is ensuring that your opponent’s energy state is bled down enough that a). He can’t follow, and b). He can’t get his nose on you to launch a weapon that can track. The latter is tough in today’s world of all aspect missiles, it wasn’t much of a problem when the F-4 was fighting MiG 17’s and 21’s.

Randy Cunningham’s famous 1v1 against the mythical “Colonel Toon” (who didn’t exist) was an example of what happens when you initiate a vertical extension and your opponent has the energy and the capacity to follow. Duke knew that the MiG 17 had plenty of energy, but he went vertical anyway because he had never encountered a MiG pilot with the ability to use the vertical.

One last tip. Don’t trim during BFM. It’s particularly bad in a simulator as it masks what little feedback you receive from your control stick. We don’t have the luxury of feeling G forces, at least until affordable home centrifuges become a thing.

[nikoel]

I just play this song in the background and fly according to the lyrics. Works all the time, around 80% of the time

 

[Gunfreak]

Been BFMing all day in the F4. And not won a single round.

I've flown against MiG19(that only had guns) against MiG21 with R3Ss

Flown against F1 Mirage (full specked out with Magic 1s and Mantra. 

I've tried it all, vertical in all various angles. 1 circle, 2 circle, yo-yo, scissors, split S.

I'm sure if I flew with 9L or M, and 7F or M I could win some of the fights. But with Bs and Es I never get a chance. 

I can "win" the first turn and with Ls or Ms it would be relatively easy. But once the MiGs or F1 leaves my gun sight after the first turn. I lose it, some times I can keep them at bay for a little while. But they always get me in the end.

[Phantom12]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Been BFMing all day in the F4. And not won a single round.

I've flown against MiG19(that only had guns) against MiG21 with R3Ss

Flown against F1 Mirage (full specked out with Magic 1s and Mantra. 

I've tried it all, vertical in all various angles. 1 circle, 2 circle, yo-yo, scissors, split S.

I'm sure if I flew with 9L or M, and 7F or M I could win some of the fights. But with Bs and Es I never get a chance. 

I can "win" the first turn and with Ls or Ms it would be relatively easy. But once the MiGs or F1 leaves my gun sight after the first turn. I lose it, some times I can keep them at bay for a little while. But they always get me in the end.

Maybe you can post a tacview or video and someone here can give more specific comments. The F-4 should have an advantage over the F1. And RQ heaters can be tricky against maneuverable targets. Its almost easier to use the gun at times. If you can only go one turn it sounds to me like maybe you are bleeding too much speed off too quickly. It can be very easy to bleed alot of speed off if you arent very careful with pitch inputs. 

[Gunfreak]

35 minutes ago, Phantom12 said:

Maybe you can post a tacview or video and someone here can give more specific comments. The F-4 should have an advantage over the F1. And RQ heaters can be tricky against maneuverable targets. Its almost easier to use the gun at times. If you can only go one turn it sounds to me like maybe you are bleeding too much speed off too quickly. It can be very easy to bleed alot of speed off if you arent very careful with pitch inputs. 

Is there an ideal turning speed in the E?

The F16 paradoxically turns best at 450knots.  Instead of every day logic of slow means sharper turns.

[Qcumber]

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

I've flown against MiG19(that only had guns) against MiG21 with R3Ss

I've flown a few rounds against AI Mig-19 guns only. I've been shot down twice, once because I messed up the merge, once because I got too slow. I've had about 6 rounds where I have avoided being shot down but no Mig kills yet. 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Is split thrust do-able?

[G.J.S]

55 minutes ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Is split thrust do-able?

Not really, the thrust lines are too close to the fuselage centre. The effect (if any) will be minimal at best.

[nikoel]

We finally got a video from GVad. F4 vs A unreleased WIP Mig-17F Module with a superimposed TacView. A really good watch, wish he released a version with all the fights

 

[Phantom12]

12 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Is there an ideal turning speed in the E?

The F16 paradoxically turns best at 450knots.  Instead of every day logic of slow means sharper turns.

Best sustained turn speed is in the realm of 450-480 knots. Best instantaneous looks to be more like 430 or so in the real charts and 370 in the "DCS" charts. I think the DCS chart is pushing the AoA higher than they did on the real airplane.

 

As for MiG-17s, there is a nice Powerpoint on the conclusions drawn from Have Drill which can be found here: https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_51.PDF

Lots of nice insights in there, as well as an EM diagram. My favorite quote: Accelerating at 30-60 deg nose low during escape can force the MiG-17 pilot "into a realm of flight wherein his capability to pull out becomes his dominate consideration"

FWIW I have read in one of the osprey books that the wisdom of the time for F-4 pilots was to fight MiG-21s at as low an altitude as possible, and MiG-17s at as high an altitude as possible in order to maximise relative perf advantage.

 

On 5/29/2024 at 5:27 PM, Victory205 said:

Sea Level charts are not as useful because the Ps curves tend to get flat, even more so for high TW aircraft. The real charts are OK for comparing max speeds, but sea level charts make it difficult to ascertain targeted sustained turn velocities. FWIW, we typically used 15,000 for comparison, if you take a look, you’ll instantly see why. 

For an out of plane extension and reversal, perhaps the most important aspect is ensuring that your opponent’s energy state is bled down enough that a). He can’t follow, and b). He can’t get his nose on you to launch a weapon that can track. The latter is tough in today’s world of all aspect missiles, it wasn’t much of a problem when the F-4 was fighting MiG 17’s and 21’s.

Randy Cunningham’s famous 1v1 against the mythical “Colonel Toon” (who didn’t exist) was an example of what happens when you initiate a vertical extension and your opponent has the energy and the capacity to follow. Duke knew that the MiG 17 had plenty of energy, but he went vertical anyway because he had never encountered a MiG pilot with the ability to use the vertical.

One last tip. Don’t trim during BFM. It’s particularly bad in a simulator as it masks what little feedback you receive from your control stick. We don’t have the luxury of feeling G forces, at least until affordable home centrifuges become a thing.

Thanks for the tip. Looking at the F-4 charts its definitely noticeable that STR degrades above .9 Mach, which wasnt as obvious in the other charts. .9 is where transonic begins for the F-4 so that makes alot of sense. I didnt scour every corner of the internet but didnt quickly find anything for the MiG-21... I know some of the russian charts are in a different format as well. Unfortunately its also well known that the DCS MiG-21 deviates from the real charts quite a bit in some areas, which makes comparisons harder.

I did find an old analysis some French users made on another flight simulation forum, and I attached them to this post. Those seem to be made from the real charts and are for combat loaded airplanes as well.

The conclusions seem to be about the same at 15000 ft. F-4 has an STR advantage in the 4-500 kt range, and a decent climb/thrust advantage at most speeds. Interestingly at 5000 ft the advantage is less than at 15... which goes against the wisdom I mentioned above.

 

Some other random thoughts: Ive had decent luck with Aim-7s in the dogfight environment so far. They arent perfectly reliable by any means but IMO its worth taking any half decent shot that presents itself. If it hits great, if not its a 500lb ballast you just ditched, that obviously wasnt going to be useful to you anyway. With good use of the ACM modes you can get quite a few opportunities for all aspect shots you wouldnt get with a RQ sidewinder. I had at least one hit a MiG-21 after being fired from inside of 1NM.

Also I become more and more convinced that AoA management is a crucial skill in the F-4. The nose rise/stick force lightening the airplane was known to have near the stall or coming down from supersonic speeds is maybe not as noticeable as in the real plane with 50lb stick forces, but it is there. Its easy to pull more than you wanted and have an accidental AoA excursion. If you dont consciously reduce AoA you can end up bleeding alot of energy for little gain.

null

Compared-Air-Combat-Performances-Mig-21-vs-F-4-Opus-1.pdf Compared-Air-Combat-Performances-Mig-21-vs-F-4-Opus-2.pdf

[aaronwhite]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:11 PM, mattag08 said:

Absolutely nothing. There is no money in it for them if they update those AI. I mean there is in the sense that DCS would be a better sim, but they don't view things that way. They only care about short term cash infusions from new modules.

That's obviously nonsense because they've already been working, quite openly, on the AI flight models and combat behavior. Saying they don't care because there's no money in it for them makes no sense, because they've already been working on it and showing their efforts. 

[kraze]

12 hours ago, nikoel said:

We finally got a video from GVad. F4 vs A unreleased WIP Mig-17F Module with a superimposed TacView. A really good watch, wish he released a version with all the fights

 

Yeah I liked how he drives the point home that not winning AND not losing the fight is OK as long as you get out alive.

[Qcumber]

2 hours ago, kraze said:

Yeah I liked how he drives the point home that not winning AND not losing the fight is OK as long as you get out alive.

That pretty much sums up my "successes" so far. 

[nikoel]

Well, ask and I shall receive. This is the full unedited recording of a live dog-fighting session (session starts at ~2:30)

It's good to know that he struggles with Jester being mute in dogfights as well. I believe this is because his "dogfighting radius" is set too close, so he stops his bandit callouts when you need them the most 

 

[Kalasnkova74]

A point to note. Those aware can disregard, but for maximum maneuvering performance you’ll want to disable the stability augmentation switches on the left console below the throttle.

CAUTION: I would highly recommend newcomers practice departure from controlled flight recovery at higher altitude before fighting with those switches disabled. Abusing AoA with the stability augmentation disabled (especially in pitch) carries a risk of spins. If that happens, deploy the drag chute in flight and neutralize the controls. 

[CrazyGman]

Listen guys hears the rub, the BFM performance difference between The F-4 and the other cold war jets is pretty marginal. To the extent that if you get caught out with more fuel the other jets are likely going to have a small advantage. Stop thinking that there is a silver bullet for winning in the F-4, there isn't. You set up engagements in your favor or you disengage. You manage your energy and you capitalize on opportunities and avoid making mistakes, and you practice, and you practice. I've flown pretty much all the cold war jets in game including the F-4 and played them in PVP and I normally win my engagement regardless of which airframe i'm in and regardless of which other cold war jet i'm fighting, i've out rated every cold war jet playing as every other cold war jet, because the simple matter is keeping consistant rate while maintaining eyes on an enemy is hard, and even if you have a marginal advantage in turn rate the most likely scenario is someone runs out of gas first

Edited June 3, 2024 by CrazyGman

[SgtPappy]

7 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

Listen guys hears the rub, the BFM performance difference between The F-4 and the other cold war jets is pretty marginal. To the extent that if you get caught out with more fuel the other jets are likely going to have a small advantage. Stop thinking that there is a silver bullet for winning in the F-4, there isn't. You set up engagements in your favor or you disengage. You manage your energy and you capitalize on opportunities and avoid making mistakes, and you practice, and you practice. I've flown pretty much all the cold war jets in game including the F-4 and played them in PVP and I normally win my engagement regardless of which airframe i'm in and regardless of which other cold war jet i'm fighting, i've out rated every cold war jet playing as every other cold war jet, because the simple matter is keeping consistant rate while maintaining eyes on an enemy is hard, and even if you have a marginal advantage in turn rate the most likely scenario is someone runs out of gas first

 

This is the best thing IMO of this era of jets.

They're closely matched, there's a lot of data out there and when someone beats you, chances are they were just better pilots.

That said, I don't get the impression that people are looking for a magic bullet. I think that we're all sort of just enjoying what abilities the Phantom has and lacks vs other jets because it's fun to just nerd out and analyze and also because it's a video game where anything can happen. Two buds can hop in in a 1v1 gun fight and be evenly matched and that's where knowing nuanced aircraft characteristics shine the most.

Realistic scenario or not, it's important to remember this is a game and a simulation - not real life - and everyone plays a bit differently. 

Edited June 3, 2024 by SgtPappy

[Kalasnkova74]

48 minutes ago, SgtPappy said:

This is the best thing IMO of this era of jets.

They're closely matched, there's a lot of data out there and when someone beats you, chances are they were just better pilots.

That said, I don't get the impression that people are looking for a magic bullet. I think that we're all sort of just enjoying what abilities the Phantom has and lacks vs other jets because it's fun to just nerd out and analyze and also because it's a video game where anything can happen. Two buds can hop in in a 1v1 gun fight and be evenly matched and that's where knowing nuanced aircraft characteristics shine the most.

Realistic scenario or not, it's important to remember this is a game and a simulation - not real life - and everyone plays a bit differently. 

 

This.

A good pilot triumphs in a dogfight. A great pilot avoids one in the first place. 

Putting things in perspective,  a 1v1 airplane jiu-jitsu fight is not statistically the most common way aircraft get shot down. Most A/A kills are zero-circle ambushes of unaware targets, typically because they’re engaging someone else or distracted (looking at maps/instruments/etc). Unless you’re in a BFM specific session, accepting a merge is asking to get ambushed by a third party. 
 

That all said ,it is fun to spank an F-5E in an unrealistic & tactically unlikely 1v1 mission.