Resurrecting that old conversation - F-16C VS F/A-18C

[cptmrcalm]

Resurrecting that old conversation - F-16C VS F/A-18C.

Updates over the recent months and some ex-fighter pilots having recently posted some interesting topics on the matter had me and a few friends having some really interesting conversations.

 

So much so, I thought it would make for an interesting exchange here too.

 

Who wins in a guns only fight? passing one another and turning into the merge. 

 

I was all F-16C until recently. Whats your take?

 

is it possible to include a survey? 

 

 

www.youtube.com/@cptmrclam

Edited May 23, 2024 by cptmrcalm

[Nedum]

One or two days ago, on YouTube, Mover did a comparison between the F16-C and the F/A-18 in all aspects. There are pros and cons. In a dogfight with an F/A-18 (mostly Super Hornets, not so good in BFM) he never lost sitting in an F16-C (he said).

In RL the F16-C has a much better thrust to weight ratio than the F/A-18. The weak point of the F/A-18 is the bad acceleration once she gets slow.

In DCS, I have the feeling the T/W ratio of the F/A-18 is much better than in RL. You can "ride" the F/A-18 on the thrusters, and even you are slow, I feel one accelerate nearly as good as the F16-C.

If I am low at speed with the F16-C it feels like she needs ages to get speed back. The other way around with the F/A-18. Never got the feeling there is no acceleration, no matter which AOA is shown.

My thoughts about this:
In DCS, if both Pilots have an equal skill level, the F/A-18 can't lose if the F16-C driver isn't one of the lucky ones.  There was an update a few weeks in the past, with that the Hornet became a real BFM Monster (not to say she wasn't that before ;)). It's not even possible to get too slow with the DCS Hornet anymore.
Before this special update, I'd never had a problem to fight an Ace Hornet AI in a BFM fight. After that patch, I had to fight like I did before against a real player. And now, I have no chance against my friend in PvP if he flies an F/A-18 and I the F16-C.  The most annoying part is, he mostly didn't even need to override the limiter. That's real frustrating, because now I can ride the G-limit much better with the F16-C. The F16-C became better, but the F/A-18 much better. That's life.
My gut feeling: BFM = Nothing beats the F/A-18 (DCS planes, no mods).

[cptmrcalm]

I know. It's funny because I have a video coming out soon (tomorrow) whereby I try and take on the F16 in the F18. A video i've been working on since last week and then as coincidence would have it, Mover goes and posts a video about the two aircraft. 

It's no surprise what he was saying, but in DCS - virtual pilots tend not to care about their own lives so much and therefore do some daring moves sometimes! lol

I found myself thinking that, as long as I am careful, there's no way the 16 can get me with guns. Even if I win through stalemate (ie. he runs out of fuel).

 

True - I am not the best pilot by a long shot. I know a few pilots off the buddyspike server who would kill me easily. But guns only is always an interesting one because thats where you truly push the aircraft and that rarely ever happens in PVP where you have missiles to hand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

The F-16 sucks at landing on a ship

[cptmrcalm]

By the way, I should quickly stress that I am talking a gun fight only. With missiles, and with no "passing each other first" type of encounters things change so dramatically, I think I would always want to be in the 16. 

 

Getting away from a missile and shooting at range with all that energy helps a lot.

[Glide]

The F-16 is superior to the F/A-18 because when you lose in a F-16, you lose in beautiful design.  When you lose in a Hornet, you're in a Hornet.

[cptmrcalm]

lol. Like it.

[cptmrcalm]

To add fuel to the fire...

No where near as comfortable in the 16,  but I got the feeling in this that I couldnt be killed unless I did something stupid.

As you can see in the video, not the best at it, but felt comfortable and didn't feel I was ever in trouble.

 

Video moved to the screenshot thread in the F/A-18C section. Felt it was probably better there.

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2024 by cptmrcalm

[wilbur81]

On 5/23/2024 at 5:19 AM, Nedum said:

One or two days ago, on YouTube, Mover did a comparison between the F16-C and the F/A-18 in all aspects. There are pros and cons. In a dogfight with an F/A-18 (mostly Super Hornets, not so good in BFM) he never lost sitting in an F16-C (he said).

 

Yeah, yeah... and the high-hour Hornet guys in the comments of Mover's video say that they never lost in the Hornet, 1v1, to the F-16N. Oh, and Cptmrcalm: Your video, "David v Goliath," is not a good representation of the Hornet as you're not flying the DCS (USN) Hornet in that fight; your flying the "Flight Controls, Flight Controls" 9+ G Finnish jet. Try it again without the paddle. 

 

It's been said over and over again, the blk 50 Viper is not better than the lot 20 Hornet in real world BFM, it's just different. 

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by wilbur81

[cptmrcalm]

Wow. I never new about the over G being the Finnish version! Learn something every day!

Yes- the battle rages on and it was my first "moment", if you like, of being in the debate and seeing for myself.

I'm not one of these loyal and stubborn fan boys that stick to their favourites no matter what - I always appreciate the differences in the capabilities of any fighter jet and love the debates that surround them.

For the record, my favourite jet has always been the F-15. But, I've never flown it and probably never will unless it comes down on sale.

 

[wilbur81]

11 hours ago, cptmrcalm said:

Wow. I never new about the over G being the Finnish version! Learn something every day!

Yes- the battle rages on and it was my first "moment", if you like, of being in the debate and seeing for myself.

I'm not one of these loyal and stubborn fan boys that stick to their favourites no matter what - I always appreciate the differences in the capabilities of any fighter jet and love the debates that surround them.

For the record, my favourite jet has always been the F-15. But, I've never flown it and probably never will unless it comes down on sale.

 

I'm only slightly teasing... The Finnish F-18s have their G-limiter calibrated for 9G rather than the USN/USMC 7.5G limit. There is no real world flight, turn, energy bleed, etc. data for USN Hornet performance with the G-Limiter disengaged.  I'm only slightly tired of the constant Viper-better-than-Hornet-in a dogfight nonsense. It is not better. They are different in strengths and weaknesses. The Viper has the extra power and the 9G rate-options; The Hornet is more maneuverable in the 300 kts and under regime...which is where most WVR 1v1s are flown anyhow. I challenge anyone on the internet to produce a 1v1 HUD tape (real world) video that shows 9G pulls in 1v1 WVR BFM. There are several BFM HUD videos out there, but you will likely not find a single YT HUD tape showing a Viper driver pulling 9g's for more than a few seconds (if at all). There are a fair number of YT videos of real world Vipers (HUD tape footage) performing BFM... you will find very few (I've never found one myself) where the max G exceeds 7g or the airspeed exceed 350 kts. Here's one example: 

 

Another example from Defensive BFM with telemetry data afterwards:

Neither pilot breaks 7g in either engagement. That certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but probably a lot less common than people assume. Oh, and the F-15C was my first love, too.  Bummed that Razbam went with the Mudhen and not the Charlie.

Edited May 28, 2024 by wilbur81

[cptmrcalm]

Fascinating. 

Yes, I dont recall seeing any either. I remember listening to an F14 pilot on YT who claimed he pulled 12g's for a few seconds once - but no hud tape on that. 

 

Fun fact -I have actually pulled 12.2Gs "over G-ing" in the hornet in DCS. 

 

I learnt recently too that its not a good idea to over G when you have stores under the wing. Thought I was hit by a missile. The effect was a little unrealistic I think. lol.