Situational awareness, SARH, SAMS and the BVR (single player)

[Sulman]

Playing through the stock SU-27 campaign again, and trying to stick to realistic methods has been a good learning exercise. I've realised a couple of things:

 

 

Missile Defence:

1) Shaw et al recommend getting a visual on missiles. In my experience in-game, this is almost impossible for long range A2A shots, without smoke trails. It is the presence of a smoke trail that makes it possible for certain SAMs and short-range shots. I've stuck with either beaming, dragging, or medium-g reversals, which do seem to work very well, using the RWR for bearing information. If I've got time, I'll take a look out the window.

 

I approach BVR and missiles in general with a my own little Taoist approach. I.e., less effort, the better. I'd summarise it as follows:

 

My best way to defeat missile is for it to be not launched at all.

The next best way is to defeat it kinematically, i.e. stop it reaching me.

The worst way is last-ditch maneuver.

 

With that in mind, the orthoganol-roll-on-penultimate-beryoza-light does work perfectly, but feels extremely risky to me, so I'm trying not to use it. What do F-15 drivers do against the R-77? Serious question - there is no equivalent to the range-finding beryoza RWR on the F-15.

 

3) F-16's with ECM are bastards. In fact, anything with ECM & ARH is a bastard, because they deny you your range advantage, and they are remarkably adept at killing your wingie. I struggle to beat an ARH armed opponent with ECM because I won't ignore an AMRAAM launched at 25km, it's just too dangerous; again the gimbal-crank & g-pull method taught by Ironhand is great, but again relys on the beryoza, without that it is difficult (in fact beyond me, mentally) to time it right. Maybe this is realistic? Maybe an ARH opponent with a good jammer should be a tough day out? I have used ET's, but I am trying not to rely on them as they seem a bit too..efficient. Likewise overriding launch parameters does work (I launch a 27RE with 2-3 lights remaining on the Beryoza), but the AI does his normal left beam and defeats it every time. He then turns around and we're back to square one.

 

The trouble I have with dragging or beaming is the loss of SA. Most of the time I get killed, it's at what I call the 'blend' - the switch between BVR & WVR. AI always employs ARH at this range, and they have high smash. Split S-dumping chaff while beaming is pretty good, but this becomes the crucial part of the fight. After the 2nd Missile, they're usually WVR, or certainly under 10Km. I have a hell of a time seeing them; usually I switch to CAC mode and point at the last known bearing either from memory or the RWR, and cross fingers. If it works, I can get a heater off and merge aggressively; if not they normally ARH at close range and it's goodnight Irene. Any tips for improving this? What I'm trying to learn here are sound, more or less realistic techniques. Then I want to try some online stuff.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Sulman

[Udat]

ECM does in no way deny you long range shots unless you are flying online with a buch of friendlies and bandits in the mix. If you have awacs, you can get accurate distance to the target, and proper IFF. If you don't have awacs, you'll know who'sd friendly and not the second time you fly the mission, and you can ascertain the bandit's distance by watching your SPO-15. If he's locking you with 3 dark bars, you can start launching on his emitter provided your energy is good (altitude and speed.) 2 dark bars are definitely withing range. In fact, the ecm signal makes it easier for your SARHs to follow the bandit trough evasive manouvers.

[Sulman]

I've been trying long range shots from high altitude, and it does help the balance of the fight - a little, if for nothing more than putting the AI on the defensive. Wingmen seem terribly vulnerable to ARH armed opponents however, and seem good for little other than distracting enemy aircraft; they're simply unable to make a SARH attack stick, and are only successful in SRAAM engagements where they can use the R73. F-16's are still horrible up close though, as they use the 120 as a dogfight missile.

 

I also noticed that some of the stock SU27 campaign missions are slightly broken, i.e. missing loadouts; awacs not tasked as briefed etc. I fixed these and it improved the balance of play as certain tasks (SEAD) were not being fulfilled in mission 4, which meant my interception efforts were continually hampered by harassment from a Hawk SAM site.

[Udat]

Yeah that depends on game version, since Flaming Cliffs for instance gave sams better self-defense-capabilities.. I haven't actually finished the campaigns, so I can't really help with that part, as I'm used to a human wingie and human opponents.

[GGTharos]

While there exist in reality ways to range a jamming target which is trying to confuse the range issue, neither the RWR is effective, nor do the missiles have the high Pk they ought (that's the jammer's job, to reduce Pk - and it does this), nor the range you'd expect.

 

While ARH missiles are fairly easy to dodge in LOMAC, if you want any semblance of reality, your Su-27S/P should be menaced by them. You should always expect more losses than the other side when facing an AMRAAM equipped opponent. Due to the R-27ER's range and more powerful radar, the Su-27 can at least be on part with F-16's, however when meeting F-15's, bets are off - you need a newer flanker with a new radar and ARHs just to match.

R-27T/ETs are unrealistically efficient in the forward quarter in particular when launched against head-on fighters that are not in afterburner, and when launch-overriden.

 

So if you really want to try and use 'realistic tactics', keep those things in mind ... in short, quit staring at your SPO-15 to dodge the missiles because in reality that'll just get you killed. It might give you an idea that a missile is close, but no split-second timing.

[RedTiger]

Here's a few pointers. I will warn you though, if you practice this a bit, you might lose interest in single player or at least anything but a really hectic mission. I'm not sure how useful this will be in those campaign missions since I haven't played them in a long time. This IS a realistic technique (or so I have read) for Red Force fighters, but it works a little -too- well in LOMAC IMO.

 

The best way to upset with an ARH-armed AI opponent is to notch as soon as the missile is launched. If you aren't familiar with what I'm talking about, once you get locked-up by the bandit, put him on your 3 or 9'oclock and dive. You're trying to get below him while keeping him on your 3 or 9 (aka "beam"). Once you get below him, you'll notice that he'll lose his lock. Grats! You've notched him! If you do it quickly, his ARH missile will go ballistic prior to pitbull and have a near zero chance of finding you. You want to maintain this notch until you think he's close enough to negate ECM. You may have to make small adjustments to maintain it.

 

Now, here's the fun part. If you've got AWACS or GCI datalink and have an idea about his altitude, this is a fairly simple. Otherwise, it is more difficult but not impossible. Adjust your radar's expected distance and expected elevation accordingly and quickly turn back at the bandit. If you're within the "burn through" range, you should be able to find him on your HUD. You should also be within Rmax. Lock him up and fire as soon as you're head-on aspect to him. The AI posses the ability to lock you up instantly the moment you get once inch out of your notch. You'll find that he'd probably fired at you too. What you now must do is maintain your lock and try to defeat that missile. How you do this is up to you. You can do the SPO orthagonal roll deal or stick to realistic evasion tactics. Just keep your lock and SA intact. This is where the AI starts to really suck and show you why its called artificial intelligence. It will always break its lock to try to notch your lock. ALWAYS. Sad...but true, every time, like clock work. :cry: (If I could change one thing about LOMAC in a patch 1.13, this would probably be it! *hint* *hint* :D) You must keep the pressure on it to keep it defensive by firing more missiles. As you close, tally the bandit visually, deploy flares and watch for signs of a heater launch.

 

Again, this is a realistic tactic, but the super-sensitivity of the SPO, more modeling of the AMRAAM, and the fact that the bandit will ALWAYS wuss out and go defensive make it far easier than it should be.

[GGTharos]

It's a realistic tactic when the opposition's ARH missile and tracking radar sucks ... otherwise, you're in for one heck of a ride ;)

[Brit_Radar_Dude]

Sulman - how are you using your wingman? Are you using the pincer command?

 

2 v 2

Long before you are within firing distance have your wingman pincer to one side (left or right) and you go the other direction. The idea is to get the 2 bandits seperated, one will go after your wingman. After a time you turn back into the fight. Ideally you should now be on the beam of the bandit heading for your wingman. Lock him up, order your wingman to engage your target. Kick in the afterburners and race after this lead bandit.

 

Ideally HIS wingman will be a few miles behind the fight and temporarily out of it. You now have a short period of a 2 to 1 advantage over the lead bandit. With luck, this bandit having both of you fighting him will mean he doesnt get off a killing shot at your wingman. After you kill him, then take on the 2nd bandit - again with a 2 to 1 advantage.

[bear.is.flying]

 

Brit Radar Dude, is this what you mean? You are the blue going right.

 

Problem is that the bandit on your side will cut you off before you can double-team the bandit on your wingman's side.

 

Am I visualizing the geometry right here?

[Sulman]

I tried the pincer move, and it does work. Another good tactic is to get in, evade missiles using beam / reversals and let the wingie take out the shooters - this seems to work very well.

 

The main issue the stock campaign has is balance; often you're outnumbered, which is not quite my understanding of how things should be. I'm persisting just because it's fun to try different things, but am realistic at the challenges inherent in trying to take on 4 F-16s. The other problem with the AI is, you can't run away. They'll pursue relentlessly, however I have noticed an odd tendency for them to lose you (occasionally) once you get WVR, leading to inadvertent seperation. The SPO goes quiet (leading you think they're dead) and they've actually turned away.

[RvEYoda]

Basically.....make a huge barrell roll until you hit Rtr,

fire amraam from below and escape. Got me through the campaign ;)

[RedTiger]

It's a realistic tactic when the opposition's ARH missile and tracking radar sucks ... otherwise, you're in for one heck of a ride ;)

 

I can believe it. The tactic strikes me as making a grand assumption that the other guy's look-down ability really sucks. In reality there would also the big "IF" of you avoiding that second AMRAAM once turn back towards the bandit. You'd probably be getting really close the the slammer's NEZ playground if you're really low and he's really high. Fortunately for the LOMAC Su-27 pilot, you don't have to worry about all this! See you in DCS: Eagle! :music_whistling:

Edited April 30, 2009 by RedTiger

[Frostie]

Fortunately for the LOMAC Su-27 pilot, you don't have to worry about all this! See you in DCS: Eagle! :music_whistling:

Sometimes the LOMAC 120 gets vastly underrated. The AI's problem is it only fires one at a time. From about 15nm the 120 can be very deadly.

[GGTharos]

It is vastly underrated. At 15nm it'll struggle to reach you, nevermind hit you. You practically have to fly right onto it.

[Frostie]

I guess you got to know what your doing in the first place. Shooting at guys running away ain't going to work.

 

When a bandit is moving away from you then your missile envelope is greatly reduced. Its always best to shoot at guys heading towards you in most instances. Also acquiring a lock is one thing this doesn't mean the bandit will automatically explode.

[GGTharos]

Like I said. If you're going to fly into it, it'll hit you from pretty far. ;)

[cool_t]

Problems with the "Notch" 1. Your potential energy is directed away from the bandit. 2. You cant shoot at the bandit. 3. The Bandit can pull a Lead/Lag chase on you. 4. Flat or Horizontal fights limit potential energy. :)

[Sulman]

Problems with the "Notch" 1. Your potential energy is directed away from the bandit. 2. You cant shoot at the bandit. 3. The Bandit can pull a Lead/Lag chase on you. 4. Flat or Horizontal fights limit potential energy. :)

 

That and perfect SA from the AI means that turning away from the enemy or getting WVR can be dangerous. I've been splashed a few times by simply losing sight of F16's / F5's and not decisively seperating, instead trying to spot them (never works, they always shoot me down). It's a habit I struggle to shake.

 

I do like playing this way though, with no labels / no padlock. It mirrors what I've read about losing tally very easily. The LOD transition remains a nuisance.

[RvEYoda]

Fact, Lockon Aim120 speed and energy is almost 100% the same as the

real life early 1980s Aim9

[X-man]

So an Aim-9 can fly over 30nm and still have energy to hit a target IRL?

Edited May 1, 2009 by X-man

[GGTharos]

If the target flew into it - its electronics would be useless after a flight this long. The point Yoda is trying to make here is that the AMRAAM's energy profile in game is nearly identical to the real life sidewinder energy profile for a certain altitude (specifically the altitude all LO missiles have been tuned for, IIRC - this profile deviates as you go up or down from that altitude)

[X-man]

energy profile for a certain altitude

Thanks. We all know that thier envelopes are not the same over all altitudes.

[GGTharos]

If you're implying that Yoda's point is incorrect, I suggest you sink the few hours of research into it that we did. The AMRAAM and the sidewinder are both porked when it comes to their rocket motors in LO ... period.

[RvEYoda]

My point is valid both low and high Xman, The information is out there.

 

We used a declassified document from Motorola tests on Aim-9L (earlier version

than Aim-9M) compared with flight data recorded in lockon. The document also

shows the results of a new *variant* with even longer range, this one was turned

down in favor of amraam-A (I believe). You can also (if you look closely) get this from,

was it mig29 or su27 flight Manual? :). The russians also know about it.

 

the amraam in lockon never flies 30 nm. (unless you exploit the physics code, lockon missiles

going UP flying longer than missiles flying DOWN ^^)

The real one will, easily, if up high. It actually has a cruising speed of mach 4, not top

speed up there. (Source MLU manual, F-16, Amraam-A)

 

What you are seeing in lockon is possibility of hitting targets 30 nm out at the

point of firing, but the actual flight range then will be about 20 nm.

The real Amraam-B has an energy envelope of roughly twice this.

 

Also, this information is available.

 

The 30 nm approximate maximum range in real life is not only due to energy.

The missile will be performing changes in flight all the time (lo doesnt do this)

while tracking a target not to get off course (there are always variations in

air and turbulence).

 

There is also the matter of maximum amount of control input during flight, which

require some form of battery energy or similar to move the control surfaces and keep

the tracking electronics running, limiting the TIME of flight, this can also limit range.

 

However the real amraam-B does not have any physical problem flying 30nm+ ;).

Also remember each small correction, and even from the start, there are errors in

guidance, and the effect of these increase dramatically the longer the missile has to fly.

At some point it probably becomes impossible where to fly, simply because it's too far, and

a small guidance error will produce target outside scan zone when hitting ARH range.

 

 

Here is an example

In lockon the CHASE range low of Aim9 is about 0.5 nm.

The lockon amraam chase range low is about 2-2.5 nm.

 

In the real life the aim9 goes around 2 nm during very similar conditions

( this is from both motorola tests AND russian flight manuals).

 

You can get more envelopes from these documents and see that the lo amraam goes about same

range, kinetics, as the real aim9. Consider this is also an old aim9 ;)

Edited May 1, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

So when you killed a bandit at 52nm away doing what and where? ... with what?

 

Lock-On doesn't model drag quite as it ought, especially a higher altitudes. That still doesn't change the fact that LO's AIM-120 and AIM-9's energy profiles are PORKED. They're not the only ones, just

Do you actually have a point? Some sort of caveat we were not aware of?