need track replay George Hovering Skills

[Grubenstein]

Anyone else had this problem. 

George in HB mode or FLT and me in CPG seat. Command a lower altitude (few hundred feet below current) Goerge reduces alt but keeps going and hits the ground

[ruiner_]

Likely settling with power, ie you were too heavy and the engines could not provide the torque required to arrest your descent. 

Tell him to speed up to gain some translational lift to get out of it. 

Edited May 31, 2024 by ruiner_

[Lord Vader]

Hi @Grubenstein

Please include a short demonstration of the even through a track replay so we can analise the conditions.

Like @ruiner_stated, settling with power (also known as VRS or Vortex Ring State) can happen in certain conditions.

George skill is still being improved and we must ensure to not force him into conditions were it might struggle to keep up. 

[bradmick]

 

25 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Hi @Grubenstein

Please include a short demonstration of the even through a track replay so we can analise the conditions.

Like @ruiner_stated, settling with power (also known as VRS or Vortex Ring State) can happen in certain conditions.

George skill is still being improved and we must ensure to not force him into conditions were it might struggle to keep up. 

Settling with power and vortex wing state are not the same. One is a power management problem (settling with power) the other is an aerodynamic problem (vortex ring state).

 

Settling with power comes about when you’ve allowed a rate of descent to build that you don’t have power to stop. I.e. you’re descending at 800fpm but only have power to stop a 500fpm rate of descent without over torquing or exceeding engine limits and drooping the rotor.

 

Vortex ring state requires all three of the commonly quoted items to exist at the same time to get into and is the result of the inboard portion of the rotor system developing a second set of vortices that stalls the rotor. 

Edited May 31, 2024 by bradmick

[Lord Vader]

Thanks for clarifying, @bradmick

[Homelander]

At 50°C outside temperature, George can't keep the Apache in a hover without armament. I don't know if it's just the temperature or the George AI.
Here is a track file:

helo temp.trk

[Floyd1212]

It looks like George will never pull more than 87% torque.  If you require 91% to maintain an OGE hover, he will happily sit at 87% and settle to the ground.  If you tell him to increase altitude, he will confirm the command, but then never increase the collective above 87% to even try and climb.

EDIT: I should clarify, he seemed to be capped at 87% when playing back the track posted by Homelander where the temp is 50C.

In other scenarios he seems to be capped at some other value.  In 30C temps I could get him to hover by maintaining 107%, but in a 3rd test where the temp was 40C, he wouldn't go above 100%.

Edited June 14, 2024 by Floyd1212

[LuseKofte]

1 hour ago, Homelander said:

At 50°C outside temperature, George can't keep the Apache in a hover without armament. I don't know if it's just the temperature or the George AI.
Here is a track file:

helo temp.trk 195.23 kB · 1 download

With 50 °C the chopper should struggle in hoover. Both the Kiowa and AH 64 had little fuel capacity as it is and in hot areas in both temperatures and threats they took forward momentum as soon as possible in order to climb and save fuel. There is videoes about pilot mistakes in ah 64 due to heat or and altitude and its weight. It do have automation but not enough to counter physics and gravitation. I do think VR is over simulated and physics due to heat in some choppers are under simulated. You Hav no problem hoovering a loaded Hind in high temperatures. And they depended on runways in order to save the engines. 

[Floyd1212]

14 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

With 50 °C the chopper should struggle in hoover.

That's not what is going on here.  In these conditions the helo should maintain an OGE hover at 91%.  George won't pull anything higher than 87% in that track file.

(Sorry for cross-pointing this info in 2 threads.  After seeing it is a George problem, it really belongs here.)

[JetCat]

I think this value on the HUD is the torque the turbine axles are actually delivering to the main rotor mast, and not an indicator of how strong the collective stick is  pulled up. (But not sure...)

I could not even take off with the Hind in 40° last time in Nevada wow 50°C, absolute death sentence here would be a failing air conditioning. Is it even possible to breath at 50°C?

[bradmick]

The conditions are effecting the engine performance and rotor performance.

 

Also the % in the top left of the HDU is the torque sensed at the engines. Not the collective, not the engine rpm, the main rotor torque as sensed by the engines.

[Floyd1212]

5 hours ago, bradmick said:

The conditions are effecting the engine performance and rotor performance.

Are you saying that it isn't possible to maintain a hover in those conditions, or was that a reply to someone else?

It would seem to me that in the above screenshot, there isn't anything preventing George from giving it a little more collective from 87% up to 91% to maintain the altitude, no?

[mcfleck]

As I already mentioned in the related thread where this topic came up:

Torque is not everything and not the only limiting factor.

You cannot expect your helicopter to provide you 100% Tq in each and every condition. I reproduced your mission with the given parameters. What you see, when you check the ENG page is, that even in an IGE hover you have to pull into your 30 min TGT Limit. Rising your Tq above 87ish% will cause a Nr decay resulting in a loss of lift. So adding torque will not help you in these situations, it would rather exacerbate it.

What seems to be wrong though is the MAX Q indication seen on the PERF page. By definition this value should represent:

Displays the maximum torque available from the engines, based on air
density and engine condition. The values in this status window are used to assess how much torque can be
demanded from the engines without causing a decay in rotor RPM (NR); also known as “rotor droop”.

This is definitely a bug, as MAX Q is displayed with 105ish% and the rotor decay occurs at roughly 87%. With that in mind, you just would not have enough grunt in your engines in order to maintain an OGE Hover. Nothing wrong with George in that case.

[Floyd1212]

15 hours ago, mcfleck said:

Rising your Tq above 87ish% will cause a Nr decay resulting in a loss of lift. So adding torque will not help you in these situations, it would rather exacerbate it.

Okay, so I take back what I said above.  Bumping the torque up to 91% does not solve the problem and allow you to maintain an OGE hover.

I actually took over the controls and tried to hover it myself and George was actually able to do a better job than I could.  He apparently knows the magic number not to exceed before you end up with diminishing returns and get yourself into a faster descent.  At 87% he manages to flutter to the ground with grace, but if you pull even 88% you will start to drop faster, and then eventually VRS.

Agreed, not a George problem.  It just seemed he wasn't putting in the effort to maintain the hover by nudging the collective a tiny bit more, but in reality, he was so well trained that he knew it would be futile.

We need a recording for George saying. "I'm losing it!  I can't maintain a hover in these conditions!"

Edited June 18, 2024 by Floyd1212

[bradmick]

Nah, George needs to call you a dirty name for overloading the helicopter for the conditions and telling him to do the impossible.