Trimming and getting to on speed for landing

[markturner1960]

So I am working on learning the intricacies of flying the jet before the weapons and currently doing circuits. I am finding it very different to any other jet so far to get on speed and on the correct aoa round the circuit……..basically, main issue is that when I want to descend, I lose the aoa, it speeds up and it’s a constant battle. Trimming the nose up causes the altitude to go high when I want it low! I can do it, but it’s ugly, unlike the Hornet and even the F14 for example, once trimmed these are fairly easily flown on the throttle, but the Phantom less so. I am early in the process and I guess more practice will help. I have watched Reflected video and he makes it look so easy, just wonder if I am maybe missing something or some useful tips…….thanks

[Para_Bellum]

You're not alone. I'm struggling on getting the F-4 to land with correct AOA, too. It definitely behaves differently from, say, the Tomcat.

I mean, I do get the Phantom onto the runway. But it's not pretty.

 

 

[average_pilot]

I would enjoy a technical explanation on why the Phantom is different in this regard.

[Super Grover]

Please check my comment here:

 

The aircraft's creators did everything they could to improve manoeuvrability and pitch rates, but the cost was degraded longitudinal stability. Some sophisticated methods of augmenting controls were designed. However, while they helped mitigate some of the issues, they introduced quirkiness to the control systems' behaviour under specific conditions. As a result, the aircraft trim had to be constantly adjusted.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Super Grover

[markturner1960]

I dfont mind at all if thats the way it is supposed to be, I am just looking for some tips to help me get to be able to understand, anticipate & fly around the behaviour and do better circuits! 

[Super Grover]

Would you mind recording your flight, uploading it, and sharing it with us? Then, we'd have a better understanding of what changes could help you.

[markturner1960]

No probs, will do so now...standby! 

 

circuits.trk

You can see what I am up against hopefully....get it trimmed and on speed, it wants to sink, almost impossible to do the finals turn and keep it on speed without massive sink rate.....I know its me, not the jet, but keen to understand what to do and where!

Edited May 30, 2024 by markturner1960

[Kalasnkova74]

Are you using the correct approach speed? Note the F-4E approach speed changes based on weight. The heavier the jet, the higher the speed. If you try to land a heavy jet at 160 knots you’ll stall out. 
 

If you’re heavy- say because you’re taking off heavy to do circuits and haven’t burnt much fuel - aim for a speed closer to 175-180  knots.

[G.J.S]

24 minutes ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

Are you using the correct approach speed? Note the F-4E approach speed changes based on weight. The heavier the jet, the higher the speed. If you try to land a heavy jet at 160 knots you’ll stall out. 
 

If you’re heavy- say because you’re taking off heavy to do circuits and haven’t burnt much fuel - aim for a speed closer to 175-180  knots.

Fly the tone. If you are at 19 units steady tone, you are at the right speed for landing, regardless of weight.

That steady tone will govern a lot of what you do with the aircraft.

Edited May 30, 2024 by G.J.S

[markturner1960]

Yeah, trying to fly the tone, but if you look at the track, you will see the results and this is what I am struggling with..... i know what I have to do, I need some help on how to do it rather. Thanks! 

BTW, where is the weight / speed chart? Its not in any checklists I have and I cant find the kneeboard folder for the module itself, only my saved games folder....HB must have hidden it!

Edited May 30, 2024 by markturner1960

[G.J.S]

38 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

Yeah, trying to fly the tone, but if you look at the track, you will see the results and this is what I am struggling with..... i know what I have to do, I need some help on how to do it rather. Thanks! 

BTW, where is the weight / speed chart? Its not in any checklists I have and I cant find the kneeboard folder for the module itself, only my saved games folder....HB must have hidden it!

 

Currently at that annoying thing called work, so cannot view your track.

Weight and speed chart for landing? Just fly the tone. Trust me.

As mentioned, it basically rules the F-4.

Landings - fly the tone. Best turn performance - fly the tone.

It really is a good thing, you don’t need to put your head down to check anything, just use your ears.

[markturner1960]

OK, cheers. Been trying some more......flying the tone round the final turn seems to get me within 100 feet of the sea by halfway round, at which point I have to take evasive action...sink rate seems waaaaay too fast chasing the tone....I can get it on speed in the downwind just about OK, but not through the turn currently...I can just about get it back on speed between rollout from the final turn and the threshold. But its all very in-elegant....

O obviously need to learn how to "fly the tone" in those situations. Hopefully someone can lok at my track later and comment.

Thanks ! 

Edited May 30, 2024 by markturner1960

[monkie]

same here, it's a real chore to try to fly on AOA and make turns to base and final. The sink rate becomes excessive and you end up needing a ton of power and the next thing the airspeed is through 200 kts and you are level again. That mixed with the trim rate being insonsistent for some makes it not a fun experience at all. Even most of the videos on youtube you will see the players making most of the turns off AOA around 200kts until final and then choping the power and accepting fairly high descent rates. 

[CaliCheese]

The best way to figure out trim and AoA for landing is to practice slow flight in the F-4:

Your overall goal is to maintain heading and altitude without climbing or descending while going as slow as possible.

1. Pick a heading and altitude to start

2. Reduce your throttle to idle.

3. When you get to 250Kts, lower your landing gear, at 220 lower your flaps.

4. Keep increasing your AoA to maintain altitude as you slow down. Eventually, you will be on AoA and you will hear the solid tone. 

5. Now that you are at the correct AoA, you need to slowly start increasing power to maintain altitude. You want to freeze your airspeed and altitude so neither gauge is moving. You are now in slow flight.

6. Now trim away the stick pressure to maintain what you have. You want to set and then trim, do not trim to set or you will never stabilize. Hand fly the aircraft to the position you want it in and then trim away the forces (harder to do in a sim as you have to do it by look and not feel).

Fly around for a few minutes like that; no changes in airspeed and altitude, but definitely do turns (this will help with landing patterns). The F-4 is pretty stable. As mentioned by others, the airspeed will change based on weight. With full air to air missiles and about 300lbs of gas or so, the speed seems to stabilize around 157kts.

7. Now, in order to descend, you just need to reduce a little power. Adjust throttles to maintain whatever rate of decent you want. Don't pull too much power or you will drop like a rock, and it takes a little bit for the J79s to spool back up and arrest your decent. Your airspeed and AoA should not change much while in the decent. Use pitch to maintain airspeed and power for altitude. Practice doing this in slow flight before attempting landing and you will see and hear the visual queue's you need to land.

8. Next I would practice straight in approaches to the runway where you can judge if you are too high or low and find that 2.5 or 3 degree sweet spot. Once you have those, you can add in pattern work. At that point you are just maintain altitude and airspeed in the turn until you are on final and ready to descend.

It is very tricky at first, but practicing slow flight helps a lot with any aircraft.

 

 

[ricktoberfest]

7 hours ago, average_pilot said:

I would enjoy a technical explanation on why the Phantom is different in this regard.

The engines of the F4 are at at 5 degree angle. This means when you add power (especially at low speed) the nose tends to come down. Then you correct but when you reduce power the nose comes up again. It can lead to PIO. The F18 and F14 engines are angled differently so when you add power the nose comes up. Exactly opposite and you’ve conditioned yourself to that. It’s similar to a tractor prop vs a pusher prop in GA aircraft (usually)

[monkie]

it would seem to be that simple but you are trying to apply real world to a game and on top of that everyone has a different control setup, it's a recipe for inconsistent experiences. So far keeping speed about 200 around to final seems to keep the sink rate in limits around 1000-1500 and nose trimmed up to where you have to keep some forward pressure on the stick. At least you will get the turn rate and control to line up, then pull off power gently and work towards the proper AOA while adjusting power to touchdown. 

If you even let the nose move up a little on that base turn you are into a 3000fpm descent and done for without a huge power increase. I have no luck in getting any turn rate with the aircraft at proper AOA on the base and final turns witout usually pitching through AOA or excessive sink rates. 

[freehand]

I just land it like a war bird.

Edited May 30, 2024 by freehand

[markturner1960]

Thanks all, good discussion and some great input thank you....

@CaliCheese thanks, I can do 1 -6 in your list pretty well, its similar to the F14 up until that point. It all goes to sh1t on the final turn though....I have been unable to turn and keep the solid tone without dropping like a stone. As Monkie says, its possible to gash it and increase speed and haul it round the turn but you are then nowhere near being on speed. 

I know its possible ( Flying round the turn without sinking to quickly and keeping on speed) as I have seen people doing it on videos, but HOW they are doing it is less clear! 

It's all good though, I love how it is difficult and idiosyncratic it is to fly, it just adds to the challenge and the satisfaction when you get it right. It reminds me of flying the pattern around teh

 

heboat in the F14A....but more difficult

[Super Grover]

I'd maybe add that the manual suggests being "on speed minimum" before the final approach: http://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/procedures/landing/visual.html . Some of the diagrams even show "fast" - so 170-180 knots. However, I'd avoid staying above 200 knots, as above, you're getting close to the flap blow-up speed, which may retract or keep your flaps retracted until you slow down - and that can be too late for them to deploy before you hit the runway threshold.

[=475FG= Dawger]

Embrace the sink rate in the turn from downwind to final. Just get perched higher and closer to the runway and let her elevator down. Once you roll wings level on final, it will all sort itself out one way or another 

[monkie]

The lack of HUD keeps you heads down a lot as well and without a lot of visual cues that a real world pilot would have makes it even more challenging so you will have to find what works for you in the end and not worry too much about what worked in the real aircraft. Better to have some control at a higher speed than wallowing around fighting the trim for that perfect AOA. Long runway and a drag chute and call it a day. 

[G.J.S]

19 minutes ago, monkie said:

The lack of HUD keeps you heads down a lot as well and without a lot of visual cues that a real world pilot would have makes it even more challenging so you will have to find what works for you in the end and not worry too much about what worked in the real aircraft. Better to have some control at a higher speed than wallowing around fighting the trim for that perfect AOA. Long runway and a drag chute and call it a day. 

I turn the combiner off, in sim and did so real world also. The tone is really all you need. Close to solid tone in the final turn, and be on tone and constant through the last 300 ish feet of altitude above runway. No need to flare, she’s a naval bird. Just maintain solid tone and between 600 - 900ft/min decent until contact with runway. 

[av8orDave]

I've struggled in this area as well. I can turn down the HUD on the F-14, dial in on-speed AoA, and catch 3-wires until I'm bored, but as soon as I get an on-speed indication in the F-4, it wants to drop out of the sky. If I add a bit of power, then trim to get back to on-speed AoA, I suddenly find myself climbing for the heavens like a home-sick angel. I'll keep practicing, but I have to say it doesn't feel quite right.

I'm a private pilot in real life as well, and I have sworn off going out to the practice area and practicing slow-flight at altitude, so I'll be damned if I'm gonna do it on a simulator.

[r4y30n]

No need to flare, she’s a naval bird.

I dunno… The USAF versions tended to have different wheels and tires, at a minimum, were the struts actually identical across all branches? Either way, I think your Air Force squadron mates will give you a dressing down for plonking it into the field lol.

[Victory205]

The “lack of a HUD” is the best feature of the F-4E, you mackerel slappers are finally going to learn to fly a proper approach. 

Couple of pointers that may help you get sorted-

• Set up your configuration as clean with 3-4000lbs of fuel for starters. The max field landing weight is 46,000lbs, but it exacerbates the issues that you are having.

• As per my “FAM-1 Survival Guide”, use a pattern altitude of 1500 feet AGL, target 180 Knots on downwind, don’t fly too fast, it will tend to make your decel to onspeed more difficult. You also need to add power during the approach turn, the lower your downwind, the more power as your descent rate will be lower.

• Start by flying your approaches fast, 15 units, then target 17 when comfortable, then work your way down to 19.2 units. Note the power requirements (Fuel Flow) to generate the rate of descent that takes you around the approach turn under control.

• Hell yes! Practice “slow flight”, which is simply practicing flying in the landing configuration. Do the same thing, start fast, work your speed down to 19.2 units while performing level turns, then 7-800 fpm descents in a 30ºAOB, followed by wings level. Note the power required. If you want to continue to flail, skip this step.