RWR Symbol for SA-5

[450Devil]

I set up a test mission for detecting a SA-5 SAM. It only had the Square Pair TR and Tin Shield SR and one launcher. The F-4's RWR detected the SA-5 at about 100 nm (I was at 30,000 feet MSL). The RWR did not display the 5 symbol. Instead it displayed the SA-5 as an airborne radar (the boomerang looking symbol).

[450Devil]

Some further observation following today's update patch. 

It is the Tin Shield search radar that is showing on the RWR as an airborne contact (pointy boomerang symbol). Once close enough to activate the SA-5 Square Pair TR the 5 symbol shows on the RWR (as well as the airborne contact symbol). There was some discussion in the DCS General Bugs forum back in late 2021 / early 2022 about the Tin Shield being incorrectly associated with the SA-5. On that forum thread it was advise that it was a deliberate decision by ED to use the Tin Shield radar with the SA-5 in order to limited the SA-5 in-game capability.

I would kindly suggest the HB amend the F-4's RWR symbology to display the symbol for a Search Radar whenever a Tin Shield radar is detected.

[450Devil]

After about a week of researching the AN/ALR-46 and analyzing the various (Russian) radar search and track radar frequencies (using the .lua files and running trial missions flying towards each radar at 450 KIAS and at altitude 15,000 MSL) I have the following observation / queries:

1. From information on the internet the AN/ALR-46 was fitted with a crystal designed to detect radar emissions between 2 Ghz and 18 Ghz. And that appears to be how the AN/ALR-46 is modelled in HB's F-4E-45MC. 

2. The AN/ALR-46 should not (and does not) detect most DCS EW radars as their emissions are generally lower than 2 Ghz (for example, the EWR 1L13 emits in a range 0.18 to 0.22 Ghz and the EWR 55G6 in a range from 0.03 to 0.3 Ghz).

3. The AN/ALR-46 should not (and does not) detect the SPAA ZSU-23 Shilka "Gun Dish" as it emits in a range 20 to 30 Ghz. Note: the F-4 RWR Keyboard card does contain a symbol for the "Gun Dish" - probably a mistake.

4. The AN/ALR-46 does detect the Generic EW Tower, although if this radar uses the "AN/FPS-117 Radar Dome.lua" then it should not detect this radar as the frequency given in the .lua file is 1.215 to 1.4 Ghz.

5. The RWR symbol displayed for the SA-5 S-200 ST-68U "Tin Shield" is which is the symbol for a number of aircraft. Why does the RWR not display a "5"?

6.  The RWR symbol displayed for the SA-10 S-300  "Tin Shield" is which is the symbol for a number of aircraft. Why does the RWR not display a "10"?

7. The RWR displays alternating "A" and  when it detect a SPAA "Gepard" even though the F-4 RWR Kneeboard card only indicates an "A" should be displayed.

8. The LOW ALTITUDE button does not appear to add any additional capability to the current F-4 RWR.

9. Flying with both the SEARCH and UNKNOWN buttons activated appears to be the best procedure for detecting radars within the 2 to 18 Ghz range of the AN/ALR-46. Perhaps this should be noted in the standard procedures section of the manual?

As I have stated before in other threads - this is a great module (and I fully appreciate that it is still in early access and will receive many improvements over time). Well done HB and I offer the above simply as information that may assist with the development of this excellent module.

Edited September 29, 2024 by 450Devil

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, 450Devil said:

The RWR symbol displayed for the SA-5 S-200 ST-68U "Tin Shield" is which is the symbol for a number of aircraft. Why does the RWR not display a "5"?

The RWR symbol displayed for the SA-10 S-300  "Tin Shield" is which is the symbol for a number of aircraft. Why does the RWR not display a "10"?

Doesn't take away from your overall point, but shouldn't they display as an S, like other search radars?

Ditto for the SA-10 S-300  "Tin Shield" - i.e. the exact same radar but on a 40V6M mast.

Especially when, IRL, no version of the Tin Shield is associated with any version of the SA-5 - it's first a general-purpose EWR (which is what you'll mostly see it used as IRL) and second an alternate acquisition radar for the SA-10 (or at least some versions of it), with the primary acquisition radar being the Big Bird.

[450Devil]

@Northstar98. Thank you.

On balance I have to agree with you. The "Tin Shield" displaying as "S" would be much better that the current situation and it would be consistent with the other two DCS SA-10 search radars - the SA-10 S-300 "Clam Shell" and the SA-10 S-300 "Big Bird" - which both display as "S" on the RWR.  

The big discrepancy is the "Tin Shield" currently displays an aircraft symbol whenever the AN/ALR-46 detects it - thus making tactical decisions much more difficult as the pilot / player may believe they are facing an airborne threat when in fact they are facing a SAM threat.

I also agree with the point you make about the use of the "Tin Shield" IRL.  

[450Devil]

Sneaky, sneaky HB. I just tested the AN/ALR-46 against both the SA-5 and SA-10 "Tin Shield" radars. Now they both display as "S" on the RWR (at 150 nm range) with SEARCH button activated and UNKNOWN flashing - activating the UNKNOWN button superimposes a "U" on the "S". 

Also tested the Gepard - it now does not display on the RWR. Lots more testing to do.

Why no change notes in the latest Update information?

[MYSE1234]

The RWR classified the Tin Shield (one of its beams) as a Tornado before this patch as the two radar's parameters were very close to each other, which is why it showed as one of the aircraft symbols (the one related to the Tornado's radar).
This patch added a custom radar for the Tornados that is quite different from the auto generated one from before this patch. So now the RWR should see it as a Tin Shield without problems. Knock on wood.
So it wasn't strictly a bug, the RWR did work the way it should. It was just a bit unlucky with its guess on what radar it was seeing. 

From the change log:

• Added custom Tornado radar.

Edited October 7, 2024 by MYSE1234