Pimax Crystal Light - is no DFR a deal breaker for DCS?

[dsc106]

I've got a 4090 & Reverb G2, but I like to play low level rotor wing over dense areas and single player scripted campaign missions. FPS is still a challenge even with most things on high but flat shadows at low, so I still use 45fps Motion Reprojection & DLSS Quality in OpenXR. Looking at my frametimes, I suspect I could do locked 72fps if the G2 had it, but it doesn't. My benchmark is Reflected's Marianas Paradise Lost campaign in the rain.

I'd love to upgrade to a 5090 this fall, and thus go to a locked 72fps and high shadow quality (DLSS Quality) on a Pimax Crystal Light (2800x2800 panel, but I believe the Crystal looks best at 4200x5100 resolution scaling to correct for barrel distortion, as that is considered "100%"?). 

But without Quadviews DFR, I am afraid it will just be too much even then - The G2 at 100% scale is 3100x3100 and 9.7 million pixels. Jumping to the Crystal Light's native scaled resolution of 4200x5100 is a jump to 22 million pixels, over double the demand on the GPU. The 5090 is rumored for a 70% performance uplift. If DCS implements VR Render Graph for a big jump in VR performance, then mmaayybbeee I can achieve it on the Crystal Light...

Anyway. I am wondering for any insights here. Do you think the Crystal Light w/out DFR will be sufficient? Sure, we have Quadviews FFR which can help, but part of a larger FOV is to allow you to use your gaze when dogfighting or looking around the cockpit and without DFR, that FFR region won't look great.

[Dangerzone]

3 hours ago, dsc106 said:

I've got a 4090 & Reverb G2, but I like to play low level rotor wing over dense areas and single player scripted campaign missions. FPS is still a challenge even with most things on high but flat shadows at low, so I still use 45fps Motion Reprojection & DLSS Quality in OpenXR. Looking at my frametimes, I suspect I could do locked 72fps if the G2 had it, but it doesn't. My benchmark is Reflected's Marianas Paradise Lost campaign in the rain.

I'd love to upgrade to a 5090 this fall, and thus go to a locked 72fps and high shadow quality (DLSS Quality) on a Pimax Crystal Light (2800x2800 panel, but I believe the Crystal looks best at 4200x5100 resolution scaling to correct for barrel distortion, as that is considered "100%"?). 

But without Quadviews DFR, I am afraid it will just be too much even then - The G2 at 100% scale is 3100x3100 and 9.7 million pixels. Jumping to the Crystal Light's native scaled resolution of 4200x5100 is a jump to 22 million pixels, over double the demand on the GPU. The 5090 is rumored for a 70% performance uplift. If DCS implements VR Render Graph for a big jump in VR performance, then mmaayybbeee I can achieve it on the Crystal Light...

Anyway. I am wondering for any insights here. Do you think the Crystal Light w/out DFR will be sufficient? Sure, we have Quadviews FFR which can help, but part of a larger FOV is to allow you to use your gaze when dogfighting or looking around the cockpit and without DFR, that FFR region won't look great.

In saying that 5090 release date this fall? Is there something I don't know about?!?

Firstly - I would recommend trying motion reprojection off. I was stuck at 45fps motion reprojection, and was surprised when I turned it off, all of a sudden I was hitting 90fps the majority of the time. With some tweaks to my settings, I fly almost exclusively now with the HP Reverb and 4090. (Well - did until my HP gave up the ghost).

Re your question, at the moment I don't think anyone can give a definitive answer. It's all theoretical until the Crystal Light is in the hands of general people and we start getting real life information coming back. Will their 60fps be far better than the HP's and not have that flickering effect? If so - this could be a game changer for many. Even dropping to 72hz could be a good option. We also don't know how much barrel distortion will occur if sub-sampling resolution, or how much worse it will make things, or if due to the high resolution it will still outperform a HP Reverb with clarity while maintaining similar performance levels. 

For me personally, if my Reverb was still working properly, I'd wait until both the release of the Crystal Light, and the Crystal Super to gain a real understanding of what the real world differences are going to be. I am one that is concerned about having no DFR - but I'm also now a beggar. With my VR headset dying - I need a new VR headset now, so can't afford to wait. 

It's reported that you can still use Quadviews with the Pimax Light. It obviously won't be dynamic though. How much it affects the outer edge is again yet to be seen (by the masses). Pimax also seem to have their own mirroring/reprojection which could be vastly better than what we see with the HP. 

I'm optimistic about the Pimax Crystal. I'm thinking (hoping?) that there are enough combination options/between FFR, Subsampling, Refresh Rates (including halving them) and Motion Reprojection that we're going to see it being practical for DCS use not only for 4090's but even as far back as the 3080/3090's.

Dynamic Foveated Rendering of course is king, so as always with DCS, it's compromise and seeing if there are combinations that meet your satisfaction. 

[jaapgrolleman]

I think both the Crystal and Crystal Light are fine. The Crystal Light is lighter and easier to setup, and no battery. FFR takes maybe a day to get used to but then it's easy. Besides, lenses blur a bit at the edges anyway so some pixelation there is no problem. You just need to make the focus area bigger compared to DFR, so you lose some performance, but it's still good and a big bonus over no foveated rendering.

[Aapje]

9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

In saying that 5090 release date this fall? Is there something I don't know about?!?

Historic precedent says that the release should be around September/October. 

[Calvin.Pimax]

Certainly, some users might suggest utilizing DFR for DCS, as it can offer significant performance improvements. However, with FFR (by Light), you can achieve almost the same level of performance, albeit potentially with a slight loss.

With more users receiving the headset, it's likely that you'll come across useful reviews soon. These reviews will likely include benchmarks of Light in DCS without FR, providing valuable insights.

[boedha68]

I have news. I was on the roadshow in Nijmegen.

 

The pimax crystal light is a fantastic headset. A HUGE upgrade from my HP reverb G2. And really i have a RTX 4090 and i am not concerned for the FPS in my system. In my opinion there is a trick in the software that you have great, smooth FPS with fantastic graphics. How they did it. I really don't know, but it is really there!

There was a visitor who took his own PC with a rtx 3070 card. Even he was pleased with the output.

I preordered the light a month ago and wait for arrival. 

The quality of graphics was superb. This headset is maybe the one everybody's waiting for.

Even famous youtuber Andrei Celeste from HIP games was very excited. See picture. 

 

 

 

[BazzaLB]

9 hours ago, Calvin.Pimax said:

Certainly, some users might suggest utilizing DFR for DCS, as it can offer significant performance improvements. However, with FFR (by Light), you can achieve almost the same level of performance, albeit potentially with a slight loss.

With more users receiving the headset, it's likely that you'll come across useful reviews soon. These reviews will likely include benchmarks of Light in DCS without FR, providing valuable insights.

Yeah, you can look forward to VR Flight Sim Guy raving about the performance whilst he flies over the middle of the ocean at 20,000 feet and directing you to his sales referral link.

[Dangerzone]

10 hours ago, boedha68 said:

In my opinion there is a trick in the software that you have great, smooth FPS with fantastic graphics. How they did it. I really don't know, but it is really there!

There was a visitor who took his own PC with a rtx 3070 card. Even he was pleased with the output.

Did you experience the motion smoothing with DCS at low level? Or was it with another game, or DCS at high level?

For me, the real test will be DCS, Low Level and seeing how things like the HUD behaves while things are flying past fast, and how the HUD handles in the rotor blades of helicopters. With other motion reprojection I've seen this work from being fair, to very poorly. It's that mix of an image (HUD) superimposing over a moving background that is the real test and I'm excited to know how that goes.

[boedha68]

Another game. When it arrives i can test it.

[Habu_69]

I fly DCS VR with the BigSCreen Beyond HMD and, with no FR at all in busy MP missions, I get great visuals and steady 72 fps. This with RTX 4090 and 7800x3D. Your mileage may vary.

[dsc106]

I've seen some discussion that the traditional advice of needing to oversample the headsets by ~150% to correct for lens barrel distortion is something of a myth. I do not know what to make of that. Can anyone shed insight? I run my G2 at 3100x3100 (150% oversampled as recommended, this is considered 100% in software). If I run the Crystal Light at Pimax's balanced setting, it will require something like 3100x3800. But their maximum mode (150% horizontal and 180% vertical oversample) is 4200x5100.

The question is, what if I run the Crystal Light at 3100x3800? Will it still look substantially better than the Reverb G2, without any bothersome distortion? Or should I really need to plan to run this at a more traditional 4200x5100? It is important to note that I plan to use DLSS Quality. I remember a discussion that found that people using DLSS when oversampling their headsets had good results. People trying to use DLSS running their headset at the native resolution (ie 2100x2100 on the G2) had very poor results. So this may factor in.

Regarding FFR, I really want to be able to glance down at cockpit instruments, or glance around to peripheral during a dogfight, and make use of that extra FOV. But maybe I can still get a little benefit by using FFR quadviews in a wider circle and still inch out maybe +10 FPS?

I know, I know. More to come with reviews. But the thing is, the existing Crystal is out there and the panels are the same. So perhaps users of the Crystal can shed light on these oversampling and FFR questions.

RE: the RTX 5090, just google RTX 5090, there have been a number of rumors and leaks and the card doesnt seem to be very far out at this point. Take them with a grain of salt, but also, the RTX 4090 rumors at this time in the release cycle turned out to be exactly accurate, so...

Edited June 5, 2024 by dsc106

[Dangerzone]

6 hours ago, dsc106 said:

RE: the RTX 5090, just google RTX 5090, there have been a number of rumors and leaks and the card doesnt seem to be very far out at this point. Take them with a grain of salt, but also, the RTX 4090 rumors at this time in the release cycle turned out to be exactly accurate, so...

Hmm... that then has me wondering. I was looking at the Pimax Crystal light to 'get me by', and then getting the Pimax Crystal Super down the track for the DFR. 

If the 5090 is not too far away (and is actually going to beat the Pimax Crystal Super) - the question I now have is: Would it be better to have the benefits of the DFR with a 4090, or would there be more benefits and performance gains using a crystal light with no DFR and just brute forcing the output with a 5090 instead?

[dsc106]

8 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

Hmm... that then has me wondering. I was looking at the Pimax Crystal light to 'get me by', and then getting the Pimax Crystal Super down the track for the DFR. 

If the 5090 is not too far away (and is actually going to beat the Pimax Crystal Super) - the question I now have is: Would it be better to have the benefits of the DFR with a 4090, or would there be more benefits and performance gains using a crystal light with no DFR and just brute forcing the output with a 5090 instead?

I mean, there's a lot of people who want a 5090 + DFR quadviews... We are all still making compromises at this point. The compromises you will make depend on your budget, values, and preferences. But if the choice is between 4090 + Crystal Super or 5090 + Crystal Light, this might partially come down to some of the questions I was asking before about how neccessary oversampling is on high resolution headsets. 

To me the clear choice would be a 5090 + Crystal Light Eye Tracking edition, but that doesn't exist, so I'm here trying to figure out what to do myself!

[Dangerzone]

8 hours ago, dsc106 said:

I mean, there's a lot of people who want a 5090 + DFR quadviews... We are all still making compromises at this point. The compromises you will make depend on your budget, values, and preferences. But if the choice is between 4090 + Crystal Super or 5090 + Crystal Light, this might partially come down to some of the questions I was asking before about how neccessary oversampling is on high resolution headsets. 

To me the clear choice would be a 5090 + Crystal Light Eye Tracking edition, but that doesn't exist, so I'm here trying to figure out what to do myself!

Here are some factors that I've thought of. Trying to think if there's any more that need added:

• Performance (obviously )  Which combination will give me the greater performance vs total overall cost. Considerations need to be done in DCS, but also any other games or applications that may be used. (And this is one where YMMV is a great factor).
   
• Life expectancy & resell value. (Which one will I get more bang for my buck as far as time is concerned before I need to upgrade, and what sort of resale value (if any) can be obtained.)
   
• Lateral benefits - DCS aside - which combination will give me more benefits outside of DCS. (If running AI software for instance, or other non VR-games then the GPU may weigh in more than the headset). For me, DCS is the only game I play, let alone only VR game - so I need to consider other things such as video production, etc. 
   
• Warranty period. I think with GPU's we can get 2 years warranty here, and potentially a third added on depending on who we buy from. With the Crystal, it's only 12 months - so there is the possibility that either can become a paperweight after their warranty period ends. (Heaven forbid), but when spending this level of $'s it's something that should at least be given some consideration.
   
• Release timing. Which one will be released first, and what will be the delay between the releases. This I think comes into the cost factor over time, as getting something sooner gives you more time, and thus less $'s / day total overall cost. 

I'm going to be watching very closely how the announcement, release and delivery times goes of the Crystal light - as I think this will be  a good test/reflection on what we can expect in the future.

Not sure what other factors there are that need to be considered? I suspect the performance combination will be the main one, but that will be difficult to determine beyond theoretical until real world tests are done.

[Thorns]

I purchased the PCL as a replacement to the G2. I have a 13900k with a 4090 and whatever it's worth...it is been very good. I can run DCS with DLSS at 90Hz and 100% resolution. I don't know what they did with the tracking, but it's been good too. I'm happy for now. Cheers!

[Willie Nelson]

I have the Pimax OG, build quality aside, the eye tracking makes all the difference. Once you've got it you do NOT want to go without it!