Looking For Specifics About Flaps, Limitations, And Related Information

[Kageseigi]

I'm afraid I've gotten quite confused when I've been reading about the F-14's flaps (in the manual and also through many posts), so I'm looking to find some definitive answers.

First, how many types of flaps does the F-14 have? I've read different terminology: Maneuver, Auxiliary, Main, and Landing. But I don't know if they are completely separate entities, if they have overlap, or if they are just different modes or degrees of deployment.

I looked for a diagram, but didn't have much success. This is the closest I could find, but it doesn't label which section is which:

 

It looks like there are three main sections. I've read that the Auxiliary Flaps are the innermost section. Victory also mentioned that the AUX Flaps have a blow back feature in this thread:

Is the AUX Flaps blow back system modeled in DCS? I've also read somewhere that there is a circuit breaker that could disable the use of AUX Flaps. Is that modeled also?

I've been playing around with the flaps in game to see if I could answer some of my questions, but I can't seem to.

If wings are forward, using the "Flaps/Slats Switch" command will cause all three sections to move fully down. If the wings are halfway swept, it will cause the outer two sections to move fully down (and will cause the wings to spread so the innermost section will go down if I don't manually stop the wingsweep).

The "DLC / Maneuver Flaps" axis will move the two outer sections to partially down if the wings are forward or halfway swept.

I've also been trying to see what I can get to jam. So I slow to under 200, deploy flaps, then hit the afterburner with a dive, then pull high G's. If the "DLC / Maneuver Flaps" (two outer sections) are deployed, they will retract when the speed increases, so I haven't been able to jam them. If the "Flaps/Slats Switch" is deployed, then all the sections that are down (two if half-swept, and all three if fully spread) will jam. If half-swept, the innermost section won't deploy, so even if when the others jam, it will remain operational when the wings are spread, and will also allow the wings to be spread/swept half-way even with the outer sections jammed.

I've also found that the innermost sections will jam independently of each other. I'm sure there are many more possibilities/modes that I'm unaware of that others have knowledge of.

I'm curious to learn the specifics of what each section is and what modes it is used for. Also what are the limits of each section/mode. For examples:

1. I've read that Landing Flaps have a limitation of 225 knots and 2 G's. Do Maneuver Flaps have limitations, or will they automatically retract before they can be damaged? And is there a way to override the automatic retraction of the Maneuver Flaps?

2. Do AUX Flaps have a blow back feature in DCS, and if so, how can I make it work so they will avoid getting jammed?

3. Can the slats get jammed also?

For more confusion, the manual states:

Quote

If a fault exists preventing retraction of flaps the FLAP handle should be moved to the UP position and then moved outboard and up to the EMER UP position, overriding faulty interlocks.

Which flaps does that refer to? Will that retract jammed flaps, or does it depend on the torque tubes being functional? Does the DCS F-14 model faulty interlocks?

Also, the manual states this:

Quote

The FLAP light on the pilot Caution - Advisory Indicator indicates a malfunction in the flap system with flaps at non symmetrical positions. The REDUCE SPEED warning light on the left side of the Vertical Display Indicator (VDI) indicates flaps not retracted above 225 knots indicated airspeed.

I suppose the "non symmetrical positions" could refer to situations like when one of the AUX Flaps gets jammed, and the other doesn't. But which flaps will cause the REDUCE SPEED warning light? Any flaps or just Landing Flaps?

Haha, so many questions! But thank you to anyone with the answers!

Edited June 10, 2024 by Kageseigi

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

Do AUX Flaps have a blow back feature in DCS, and if so, how can I make it work so they will avoid getting jammed?

@Victory205 said Tomcats did have blow back feature for aux flaps originally but it was only for a short time and it was removed since. So no, there's no blow back feature in our Tomcat modeled either. You avoid jamming the flaps by flying within the limits and using them only for heavy take offs and all landings, just how they were used IRL. In DCS some use them for dogfight advantage in low speed maneuvering because they don't bother to rtb after the win, limping with damaged flaps 100nm. Also RIP Snodgrass used them this way allegedly.

There are only maneuvering flaps (outer parts, they move together) and auxiliary flaps (innermost section). https://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#flaps-and-slats

I believe if anyone uses other names like landing, main or full flaps they mean all sections of flaps moving together into full down postion.

In DCS the aux flaps can be jammed, either symmetrical or non-symmetrical (because of jammed torque tubes) but I had not heard of jamming maneuvering flaps or slats. You can't unjam them. Only repair on the ground. We also don't have emergency positions modeled I believe, not that it would help with this anyway. Only extended aux flaps will trigger the "reduce speed" warning.

The only circuit breaker modeled is for the A Tomcat, for Mid Compression Bypass, but only as a key binding, no animation, and it either doesn't work or no one was able to confirm it working.

[DD_Fenrir]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

In DCS some use them for dogfight advantage in low speed maneuvering because they don't bother to rtb after the win, limping with damaged flaps 100nm.

Or we keep a very wary eye on the airspeed and cycle them back in before we damage them. Takes skill.

Sometimes we get it wrong but sometimes it's the only way to survive a merge with a well flown Hornet/Mig-29/Su-27. Whatever it takes. 

2 hours ago, draconus said:

Also RIP Snodgrass used them this way allegedly.

No allegedly about it. In almost every interview about BFMing the F-14 he references his use of the 'Big Boys' during BFM. How popular his made him with the crew chief's of his squadron is open to debate.

[draconus]

17 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

How popular his made him with the crew chief's of his squadron is open to debate.

I heard it's Plane Captain in Navy.

[Kageseigi]

20 hours ago, draconus said:

Tomcats did have blow back feature for aux flaps originally but it was only for a short time and it was removed since.

Unless I'm misreading, and I may be, he was referring to the slats and "main" flaps having that automatic retraction feature (which was present only on certain models) removed, and that AUX Flaps (on all Tomcats) always had a blow back feature...

"Believe it or not, the F14 did have a provision for the flaps and slats to automatically retract.  If the flap handle was in the normal range (ie, not in emergency), then an overspeed that exceeded 225 KIAS would auto retract the main flap panels. However, this feature was removed in an airframe change (AYC 660P1)."

"All F14's also have an AUX FLAPS blow back feature due to a bypass valve located within the aux flap control section of the combine hydraulic system. So technically, the F14 does have a blow back feature, but only for the AUX FLAPS."

20 hours ago, draconus said:

There are only maneuvering flaps (outer parts, they move together) and auxiliary flaps (innermost section). https://heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#flaps-and-slats

I believe if anyone uses other names like landing, main or full flaps they mean all sections of flaps moving together into full down postion.

17 hours ago, DD_Fenrir said:

In almost every interview about BFMing the F-14 he references his use of the 'Big Boys' during BFM.

I think that's all part of my confusion, mainly the terminology. When I read something like, "Use your maneuver flaps in a dogfight, not your landing flaps," it sounds like they are separate parts of the airplane, when they seem to be different modes/extents instead.

After looking more, I found this diagram: 

So it appears that if the flaps are down within 10 degrees, they would be considered Maneuver Flaps. If they are fully down at 35 degrees, they become Landing Flaps. According to the manual, the (non-AUX) "flaps can be set to anywhere between retracted and fully extended," though I'm not sure what they would be considered if between 10 and 35 degrees.

Also according to the manual, there are two "modes" that control the flaps: "The normal flap and slat extension" and "the maneuver flap system."

After reading the manual more in-depth, I'm still trying to understand about the AUX blow back system that Victory mentioned. If one does have all sections flaps fully extended, and if the AUX Flaps always had a blow back feature, then shouldn't only the outer sections of the flaps be in the most danger of getting jammed?

 

Still so many questions! Oh well, in any case, this is what I'm gathering:

"Maneuver Flaps" can refer to the two outer sections of flaps (especially when up to 10 degrees extended, but less likely if beyond that), or it can refer to the Maneuver Flap System.

The outer two sections of flaps can be referred to as "Maneuver Flaps, Outboard Flaps, Main Flaps, and possibly Normal Flaps."

The inner section of flaps are called Auxiliary (AUX) Flaps or Inboard Flaps.

"Landing Flaps" are all three sections of flaps being fully extended. Also referred to as the "Big Boys."

"Flaps" is a general term that can basically refer to any of the above, though less likely to refer to AUX Flaps specifically unless part of a whole (e.g. "Landing Flaps").

 

Haha, what else am I missing?

Edited June 11, 2024 by Kageseigi

[draconus]

You know what? The naming is mostly about what controls you're using. Just start a Tomcat on the ground and see in external view what control is moving what. Same in the air. Check automatic maneuvering flaps/slats working with higher alpha.

2 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

When I read something like, "Use your maneuver flaps in a dogfight, not your landing flaps," it sounds like they are separate parts of the airplane, when they seem to be different modes/extents instead.

They are different parts. Just full landing config involves both of them max down while maneuvering means only outer parts in limited range.

And I repeat, there's no blow back feature in DCS Tomcat and it is correct as per NATOPS.

For RL additional info best to ask Vic again.