waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[NineLine]

First off, there is nothing new to report as of the date of this post, this new thread is simply a clean-up and ease of access for all current official information on the current issues between Eagle Dynamics & RAZBAM. Hopefully, this will make it easier to see the current known information and weed it out from the theories, guesses and suggestions in the other thread. If you want to see that one, the link will be available at the bottom of the post.

The first public knowledge of the disagreement happened with an announcement on the RAZBAM Discord here:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1225494495458627634

razbam_prowler — 04/04/2024 10:17 AM
Dear Customers and Community,

You may have noticed that the that the latest RAZBAM announcements does not include a changelog or any updates for our products. We would like to inform you that, until further notice, all support for RAZBAM-developed aircraft modules is on hold. This suspension encompasses, but is not limited to, bug fixes and updates.

We want to reaffirm our unwavering commitment to this exceptional community, our current customers, and prospective clients. Unfortunately, due to circumstances completely beyond our control, we are temporarily unable to continue our work at this time. Our team, a group of highly skilled and professional developers, is first and foremost made up of dedicated individuals. They invest not only their expertise but also their personal dedication and sacrifice into crafting our products. For many, this work provides essential supplementary income or even constitutes their primary livelihood.

We are hopeful for a swift resolution so that we can resume our normal operations. However, until these issues are resolved, we will not be issuing any updates about our products. We ask for your understanding during this challenging period, a situation that RAZBAM Simulations did not seek and which has previously seriously affected other parties, for example Heatblur Simulations. We have been patient, perhaps too patient, waiting for a resolution from the responsible parties. Now, we find it necessary to take a stand and await a practical solution to this deadlock.

I also want to extend my heartfelt thanks to my fellow third-party developers. Their support, once aware of the relevant facts, has been overwhelming. Thank you for elevating DCS to new heights; it truly wouldn't be the remarkable experience it is without your contributions.

The suspension will remain in effect until the significant issues between Eagle Dynamics and RAZBAM Simulations LLC are resolved to our mutual satisfaction. Once these issues have been addressed, we will resume our standard practices of bug fixing, updates, and upgrades, just as we have since our inception as developers for DCS. We hope this resolution results in a more stable and optimistic future for DCS and all 3rd Party Developers.

Best regards

Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

Eagle Dynamics was compelled to respond shortly after on their Discord found here:

https://discord.com/channels/542985647502393346/543013214485610520/1225540029493936219

04/04/2024 1:18 PM
Following the message published by Ron Zambrano of Razbam Simulations, we believe that it is necessary to rectify some of the unfounded allegations and to reassure the Community that everything is being done to resolve the current situation promptly and for the benefit of all concerned.
 
Without entering into the details of matters that are confidential to the parties, we firmly reject the allegations that the current disagreement between Eagle Dynamics and Razbam Simulations would be as stated by Razbam “due to circumstances completely beyond our control" and that it is "a situation that Razbam Simulations did not seek".
 
On the contrary, the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights, and for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims.
 
We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us. 

Please rest assured, we are addressing the situation with the utmost attention and constructiveness.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Nick Grey

RAZBAM followed with this reply:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1226492074233434182

razbam_prowler — 04/07/2024 4:21 AM
@here 
Dear customers and community
RAZBAM Simulations is actively working with EAGLE DYNAMICS to reach an agreement to resolve our internal dispute and we don't want the discussion that our public declaration has generated to escalate any further. We want to assure you that it has never been nor will it be our intention to abandon our products. We look forward to a prompt and satisfactory resolution, turn the page, and move forward.

Best regards
Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

This was the last of the official announcements from both management parties.

While both teams have officially been very quiet due to the delicate nature of issues at hand there has been some events that have come up and caused concerns.

Some Anti-Virus programs were picking up a false positive on some DCS DLLs. Sadly it seemed to be worse on some of the RAZBAM modules fueling fears of issues with the modules. This can be solved by adding the DCS install folder to the exceptions for your anti-virus software, this happens from time to time so this was nothing new. 

The M2000 had some issues, including CTDs. This was an accidental merge of some changes one of the developers was working on. Once it was identified the changes were reverted and the issues were solved (although nothing was noted in the changelog at the time). This was not anything related to compatibility with the core game.

June 12th at Midnight the F-15E radar stopped working. While we have internally identified the issue no fix has been presented as of yet. once we have solid news on that we will share that ASAP. Again this had nothing to do with core compatibility but rather something in the coding of the F-15E.
UPDATE: When version 2.9.6 drops it will contain a fix for the F-15E radar. This fix was created by our team and not given to us by any other party. 

Refunds

While at first, we were maintaining our normal refund rules, we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it. You may open a ticket here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/ for a refund, but we ask for patience as it may take up to 7-10 business days to process your refund. 

Other modules will not be refunded at this time, all of these are out of Early Access and remain working. It is our commitment that no matter what happens we will do our best to make sure these continue to work into the future. We understand those of you who remember losing the Hawk, this is not something we intend to do again.

Steam refunds are based on the play time of the core game, not the individual module. It is their policy and they handle the refunds. As we understand it, no refunds have been accepted by Valve. All modules continue to work, aside from the current radar issues with the F-15E which we hope will be addressed sooner than later. South Atlantic continues to be updated and as I stated above, the other older modules we plan to make sure they continue to work into the foreseeable future. 

Is ED broke?
No, Eagle Dynamics is very healthy aside from this dispute currently, all other 3rd Parties and the ED development team continue to work and push new and exciting content out to you. 

Is ED pushing things out because they are out of money?
No, most of these recent products have been scheduled for quite some time now, into early last year. The 3rd Party products are based on when they are ready from their own team, although some delays here and there squished some release dates together, nothing has been out of the ordinary except more goodies in a short amount of time. 

How can you keep selling the F-15E or other modules?
Right now we are working within the framework of the legal advice moving forward and not wanting to cause any more riffs or issues. It's a complex process at this point and most likely why it seems to be moving so slowly for everyone. Nothing more can be said about that right now. Sorry.

We cannot comment on any more conspiracy theories than this. This was an unfortunate disagreement that had been going on for some time and finally went public. I can only speak for Eagle Dynamics but I believe both teams want to resolve this as fast as possible and get back to making virtual airplanes. 

The discussion below was the old thread. This new thread may be moderated a little harder, so please be nice to each other, know that all the other customers in here discussing this with you are in the same boat and probably want the same thing. So let's be open to their opinions and concerns and understand they are allowed to have them as much as you are. Anything from any user here without an official tag won't be making any official comments, me and @BIGNEWY will only comment on publically available info as this is a legal matter at the end of the day.

I cannot say enough, on behalf of all of us at Eagle Dynamics, how sorry we are that you are being made, in part by us, to go through this. We are committed to getting this sorted as soon as we can.

Thanks
The ED Team

 

Edited July 5 by NineLine
Added Update to F-15E radar issue

[NineLine]

The first purge of this new thread has happened, you can find all the messages in the old thead here:
 

Also, I want to note, we are doing our best to moderate fairly, if we miss something feel free to report it. Also note, if you had something hidden or even received a warning chances are someone else did too, you cannot see other people's warnings or moderation, as such you should only worry about your own behaviour, especially in this thread. 

There is nothing new, getting the radar is still a priority and hope to have it resolved shortly. Nothing else is new as far as how talks are going, but they are going but at lawyer speeds. 

Thanks all for your understanding.

[NineLine]

Ok all, the second purge has come, as before you can find all the posts right here. Nothing has been removed that was here before:

So there is nothing new and exciting to share. I/We really wish there was but the same things are going on right now. Management teams are talking with each other, its a legal manner and it's going as slow as it can be expected when you are talking with each other through others. No matter how you slice it, it's not a great situation. 

I also noticed that because me and BIGNEWY are trying to manage and maintain this thread we are taking some heat, suggesting we are ignorant, gaslighting, trying to steer the narrative, etc. If you feel this way or one I haven't mentioned, I, on behalf of myself and BN apologize. Our intention is only to point out that the only thing official is in this first post. We both understand there is more to it, but the details around different discord and websites don't show the full picture. So we are not trying to force you not to look, but as you consider everything before making snap judgements. This is not meant to be a pity party for me and BN either, this situation sucks and I am sure because we work with ED that venting on us is all you have. I just wanted to try and clarify a little more. If we could share more details we would, but right now it would not be professional or helpful.

Another reason for the purge is the fighting here as well, at the end of the day we should all be here for a stronger and better DCS, getting this solved with the least amount of pain should be everyone's goal, and I believe it is. Fighting with each other, and hating on ED or RAZBAM, will just make whatever happens at the end of this much harder to comeback from. So consider that even if the person on the other side of the screen believes something different, they are just here to fly cool planes and enjoy DCS and all its partners. 

So once again I open this up to all of you. While I am not forcing you to look away from other sources, we will not be discussing them here. Our focus is on the professional resolution of the current issues, doing it on reddit, Disord or these forums is not the path ED has chosen to take. So sharing private DMs, or random unrelated financial reports is still not up for discussion. Frustrated user, SME, or ex-dev comments are not up for debate. Only the official public declarations that have been shared by both teams are to be discussed, and those have all been shared in the first post. 

Most importantly, be kind to each other. If you need to vent on me or BN, that is fine, send us a DM, and tell us what we are doing to frustrate you. Understand we are trying to do our best in a really terrible situation. 

Thanks all.
NineLine/Norm 

[Pipe]

@NineLine This is all intensely frustrating for everyone, you and BN included. Can’t imagine putting up with all our s**t

Hope it all works out in everyone’s favour, and for ED and all the devs..

Edited August 5 by Pipe

[Slippa]

Well that’s fair enough. 

There’s enough spite and snarly on the Planet, we could all do with trying to be better not bitter about things. Let the lawyers milk their money and hope for some kind of ammicable settlement. The sooner the better. And yeah, let’s get on with flying some cool planes (and Chinooks ).

[RafaPolit]

I agree with @NineLine's premises and his concerns about being targeted (with BN) by the hate of the users.

The issue is that, as you yourself mention it, you are the face that ED puts forward to receive "the punches" while being grossly quiet about this issue.  So I'm the first one to not assign blame and wait for information to make an informed judgement, but I believe I am entitled to forming that judgement based on more information that what has been transmitted to us.

As you also mention, the other parties involved are providing their information, quoting conversations and chats... they are more forthcoming with the community and you (as a company, not you personally) are not.  I, as a paying customer, do need to make decisions based on those facts, as I don't have an endless stream of money to spend.  So, when I decide which games to back, which developers to support, I want to have as much information as possible.  With that, I decide if I: should purchase or suggest others purchase new ED modules or not, purchase or suggest others new 3rd party developer modules or not, purchase or suggest others purchase Razbam modules?

If this dispute lasted 2 days, then my decisions spanning 2 days are probably irrelevant.  If these problems span weeks, months or years, then those decisions are more important, and, as mentioned everywhere, this hurts the environment and how we community perceive DCS as a whole!  I think it's naive to ask a community to start compartmentalizing and think: DCS is one thing, EDs business is other, Razbam is another matter and you can concentrate only on the F-15 as the other modules are out of EA.  It simply doesn't work like that.  It's the entire community around a full game that's affected by this and the decisions we make around our purchasing habits.

This feels kind of those conversations: "please sr, what happened to my order?" "I'm just the front desk person, I don't know, I'm sorry".  "OK, let me speak to the person in charge so I can understand what happened!", "I'm sorry, I can't do that", "Then you are going to hear my complaints", "Sr, don't take it against me, I have nothing to do with this decision", "Great, then have the person that has something to do with it come forward", "I'm sorry, I can't do that".  I'm sure you have been on the other end of these conversations dozens of times in your life.  It's not a good place to be for anyone.

Sigh.

 

Edited August 5 by RafaPolit

[Citizen]

At this point, any statement without evidence or corroboration by both parties should hold no weight.  This includes official announcements.

RB has claimed they would not be able to continue development and yet some updates have been delivered across several modules in the meantime.

ED has claimed that there was an IP violation but has not provided evidence of this violation.

Both parties have, at times, pointed to being 'unable' to provide evidence for their claims due to ongoing discussions.  I do not believe this to be accurate.  Both parties may have been advised by their respective legal councils that it would be preferable to not publicize evidence to support their claims, but this is not the same as being 'unable' to do so.  Legal council cannot take into account loss of community trust, and their recommendations will be blind to that.  Both parties believe the contract has been violated, albeit for different reasons.  Since the contract has been violated, confidentiality is a matter of preference.

ED is a steward of the largest consumer-facing modern combat flight simulator platform and associated community.  In that respect, I am deeply disappointed with their performance.  Even if RB is the party in the wrong, the poor community culturebuilding and communication has done immense damage.

Be easy on BN and 9L where this is concerned: much of the decisionmaking likely lies in the hands of Wags and Nick Grey.

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, Citizen said:

Since the contract has been violated, confidentiality is a matter of preference.

Confidentiality is an integral matter of legal 'Due Process', it's not a preference. It's all to do with 'prejudicing' your legal position and no Party will want to do that. Anyway, I am going to finish my glass of wine and leave you all to it for a while. Just enjoy the game, it's really a lot of fun

Until sometime in the future, enjoy 

Mizzy 

[Citizen]

This is more of a public opinion position, but a claim was made by ED.  I could understand if they wish they never made that claim to begin with, but you can't unring that bell.  Even if providing proof of the claim compromises the negotiations, all that tells me is that they value the outcome of those negotiations more than community trust.  I don't envy their position, but it's one they've put themselves in.

[freehand]

5 minutes ago, Citizen said:

This is more of a public opinion position, but a claim was made by ED.  I could understand if they wish they never made that claim to begin with, but you can't unring that bell.  Even if providing proof of the claim compromises the negotiations, all that tells me is that they value the outcome of those negotiations more than community trust.  I don't envy their position, but it's one they've put themselves in.

What claim ? & why would they wish they never made said claim what ever it was.

Edited August 6 by freehand

[Horns]

2 hours ago, Citizen said:

This is more of a public opinion position, but a claim was made by ED.  I could understand if they wish they never made that claim to begin with, but you can't unring that bell.  Even if providing proof of the claim compromises the negotiations, all that tells me is that they value the outcome of those negotiations more than community trust.  I don't envy their position, but it's one they've put themselves in.

Please note that ED's 'claim' was a reply to a statement Razbam had already made. I'm sure ED would much rather have handled this professionally, ie without making statements to the public.

[JuiceIsLoose]

8 minutes ago, Horns said:

Please note that ED's 'claim' was a reply to a statement Razbam had already made. I'm sure ED would much rather have handled this professionally, ie without making statements to the public.

I’m sure ED would have wanted to continue to not pay RB for even more months with no one knowing. 
 

And no hate on Nineline or Bignewy. I stand by my statement previously that ED management is failing their community managers by staying silent. 

Edited August 6 by JuiceIsLoose

[NineLine]

4 hours ago, Citizen said:

At this point, any statement without evidence or corroboration by both parties should hold no weight.  This includes official announcements.

RB has claimed they would not be able to continue development and yet some updates have been delivered across several modules in the meantime.

ED has claimed that there was an IP violation but has not provided evidence of this violation.

Both parties have, at times, pointed to being 'unable' to provide evidence for their claims due to ongoing discussions.  I do not believe this to be accurate.  Both parties may have been advised by their respective legal councils that it would be preferable to not publicize evidence to support their claims, but this is not the same as being 'unable' to do so.  Legal council cannot take into account loss of community trust, and their recommendations will be blind to that.  Both parties believe the contract has been violated, albeit for different reasons.  Since the contract has been violated, confidentiality is a matter of preference.

ED is a steward of the largest consumer-facing modern combat flight simulator platform and associated community.  In that respect, I am deeply disappointed with their performance.  Even if RB is the party in the wrong, the poor community culturebuilding and communication has done immense damage.

Be easy on BN and 9L where this is concerned: much of the decisionmaking likely lies in the hands of Wags and Nick Grey.

We simply cannot share any more than we have, we know it makes it tough but that is where we are at right now. When things dip into the legal realm, you do not try and use social media to win your case. It's really that simple. 

45 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

I’m sure ED would have wanted to continue to not pay RB for even more months with no one knowing. 
 

And no hate on Nineline or Bignewy. I stand by my statement previously that ED management is failing their community managers by staying silent. 

 

No, I do not agree, they are handling this as professionally and correctly as possible now that this is a legal matter. The court of public opinion will not solve anything, in fact it might make it worse in some cases, we choose to move forward as we have and hope for the best outcome possible.

[Citizen]

4 hours ago, freehand said:

What claim ? & why would they wish they never made said claim what ever it was.

 

The IP infringement claim.  At this point, they appear unwilling to back it up which lowers trust with the audience.  If I was in their shoes, I would be wishing I hadn't been explicit about IP violations since that sort of claim will be expected to be backed up.
 

1 hour ago, Horns said:

Please note that ED's 'claim' was a reply to a statement Razbam had already made. I'm sure ED would much rather have handled this professionally, ie without making statements to the public.

RBs statement was fairly imprecise as to the root of the issue and rather focused on managing expectations moving forward.  If they weren't able to continue development for any reason, I would expect them to make a statement like that.

The major issue is that ED should have gotten in front of the situation long before RB could no longer sustain development.  We've lost phenomenal talent to a competitor and that is a failure of stewardship that is difficult to overlook.

[Horns]

2 hours ago, Citizen said:

The IP infringement claim.  At this point, they appear unwilling to back it up which lowers trust with the audience.  If I was in their shoes, I would be wishing I hadn't been explicit about IP violations since that sort of claim will be expected to be backed up.
 

RBs statement was fairly imprecise as to the root of the issue and rather focused on managing expectations moving forward.  If they weren't able to continue development for any reason, I would expect them to make a statement like that.

The major issue is that ED should have gotten in front of the situation long before RB could no longer sustain development.  We've lost phenomenal talent to a competitor and that is a failure of stewardship that is difficult to overlook.

Ok, so you feel that companies should be transparent about business disputes, I sort of understand that. You do acknowledge that’s not common practice though, yeah? Your standards for deciding how you regard businesses are far you alone to set, and it’s a good thing to contribute them to the conversation, I’m just pointing out that not a lot of businesses would meet that.

[JuiceIsLoose]

8 hours ago, NineLine said:

We simply cannot share any more than we have, we know it makes it tough but that is where we are at right now. When things dip into the legal realm, you do not try and use social media to win your case. It's really that simple. 

No, I do not agree, they are handling this as professionally and correctly as possible now that this is a legal matter. The court of public opinion will not solve anything, in fact it might make it worse in some cases, we choose to move forward as we have and hope for the best outcome possible.

Because you have stated many times that people are spewing half truths and conspiracy theories here, let’s be clear here. ED CAN choose to say more. They are CHOOSING to not say anything, as you say, to win the case.

Hope the court outcome ED is looking for far outweighs the damage done to your own public opinion. No one has seen any evidence of how this claimed IP infringement has damaged DCS. The only thing I see damaging DCS is their own CHOICE to not pay third party developers (and we both know this isn’t the first time) and now it’s finally become public. 

Edited August 6 by JuiceIsLoose

[freehand]

It would be very unprofessional to say more it's not a social media debate.  

ED are doing the right thing, as for public damage that depends on the outcome at the moment all is just he said she said. 

[JuiceIsLoose]

6 minutes ago, freehand said:

ED are doing the right thing....

That depends on whether their IP claim has any validity....

[freehand]

1 minute ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

That depends on whether their IP claim has any validity....

So you know something no one else does ? do you have inside information. 

[JuiceIsLoose]

22 minutes ago, freehand said:

So you know something no one else does ? do you have inside information. 

There is lots of stuff out there in other discord and subreddits. Won't go into much more because the CM's don't like it. I can DM you if you would like.

Also I could ask you the same question. There is nothing supporting their claim of IP infringement, unless you know something else no one else does? Do you have inside information?

[Q3ark]

This situation is utterly ridiculous. If the ED and Razbam management teams had done their job properly in the first place this would never have escalated to the level of lunacy that we see now. 
 

I’ve seen all the rumours on here and the ones “that Reddit page”, I expect the truth lies somewhere in the middle, personally I don’t care. ED are completely at fault here as the platform holder, get it sorted out if you want any more money from me. 

[wombat778]

41 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

Also I could ask you the same question. There is nothing supporting their claim of IP infringement, unless you know something else no one else does? Do you have inside information?

Well that’s not exactly true. Nick Grey, officially and on behalf of ED, has publicly asserted IP infringement.  No one from Razbam, officially and on behalf of Razbam, has publicly disputed that claim.  We know that frivolous claims of IP infringement expose the party making the statements to defamation liability.  We know that lawyers are involved in the dispute and are advising both sides. And we know that ED has not taken any steps to withdraw the claim of IP infringement (which I’m certain any reasonable lawyer would advise them to do if the claim was truly baseless).

Taken together, that seems like pretty reasonable evidence that at least a potential/nonfrivolous IP infringement claim exists. Whether the claim is valid is not something we can assess based on the information we have. 

Edited August 6 by wombat778

[JuiceIsLoose]

Just now, wombat778 said:

Well that’s not exactly true. Nick Gray, officially and on behalf of ED, has asserted IP infringement.  No one from Razbam, officially and on behalf of Razbam, has disputed that claim.  We know that frivolous claims of IP infringement expose the party making the statements to defamation liability.  We know that lawyers are involved in the dispute and are advising both sides. And we know that ED has not taken any steps to withdraw the claim of IP infringement (which I’m certain any reasonable lawyer would advise them to do if the claim was truly baseless).
 

Taken together, that seems like pretty reasonable evidence that at least a potential IP infringement claim exists. Whether the claim is valid is not something we can assess based on the information we have. 

What we don't have is an official announcement that ED is making legal claims of IP infringement. What we do have is an official announcement from ED claiming that RB violated IP and that they "are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims". If you are only going by official announcements, there is nothing in ED's official announcement stating they are taking legal action against RB for IP infringement. If you are so set on only using official announcements, please show me where ED has stated they are making a legal claim of IP infringement. So how do we even know ED is pursuing legal claims specifically for IP infringement. Also, you are stating that a reasonable lawyer would advise them to withdraw their claim if it was baseless. But there are plenty of frivolous lawsuits that happen, how do we know this isn't one of them? 

[freehand]

45 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

There is lots of stuff out there in other discord and subreddits. Won't go into much more because the CM's don't like it. I can DM you if you would like.

Also I could ask you the same question. There is nothing supporting their claim of IP infringement, unless you know something else no one else does? Do you have inside information?

Seriously ? try to post like an adult would go a long way & stop wasting peoples time  with such a comment.

[JuiceIsLoose]

1 minute ago, freehand said:

Seriously ? try to post like an adult would go a long way & stop wasting peoples time  with such a comment.

You ask me to provide additional information to support what I am saying. I say that I can. Then I simply ask you for the same, and that makes me childish?