waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[NineLine]

First off, there is nothing new to report as of the date of this post, this new thread is simply a clean-up and ease of access for all current official information on the current issues between Eagle Dynamics & RAZBAM. Hopefully, this will make it easier to see the current known information and weed it out from the theories, guesses and suggestions in the other thread. If you want to see that one, the link will be available at the bottom of the post.

The first public knowledge of the disagreement happened with an announcement on the RAZBAM Discord here:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1225494495458627634

razbam_prowler — 04/04/2024 10:17 AM
Dear Customers and Community,

You may have noticed that the that the latest RAZBAM announcements does not include a changelog or any updates for our products. We would like to inform you that, until further notice, all support for RAZBAM-developed aircraft modules is on hold. This suspension encompasses, but is not limited to, bug fixes and updates.

We want to reaffirm our unwavering commitment to this exceptional community, our current customers, and prospective clients. Unfortunately, due to circumstances completely beyond our control, we are temporarily unable to continue our work at this time. Our team, a group of highly skilled and professional developers, is first and foremost made up of dedicated individuals. They invest not only their expertise but also their personal dedication and sacrifice into crafting our products. For many, this work provides essential supplementary income or even constitutes their primary livelihood.

We are hopeful for a swift resolution so that we can resume our normal operations. However, until these issues are resolved, we will not be issuing any updates about our products. We ask for your understanding during this challenging period, a situation that RAZBAM Simulations did not seek and which has previously seriously affected other parties, for example Heatblur Simulations. We have been patient, perhaps too patient, waiting for a resolution from the responsible parties. Now, we find it necessary to take a stand and await a practical solution to this deadlock.

I also want to extend my heartfelt thanks to my fellow third-party developers. Their support, once aware of the relevant facts, has been overwhelming. Thank you for elevating DCS to new heights; it truly wouldn't be the remarkable experience it is without your contributions.

The suspension will remain in effect until the significant issues between Eagle Dynamics and RAZBAM Simulations LLC are resolved to our mutual satisfaction. Once these issues have been addressed, we will resume our standard practices of bug fixing, updates, and upgrades, just as we have since our inception as developers for DCS. We hope this resolution results in a more stable and optimistic future for DCS and all 3rd Party Developers.

Best regards

Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

Eagle Dynamics was compelled to respond shortly after on their Discord found here:

https://discord.com/channels/542985647502393346/543013214485610520/1225540029493936219

04/04/2024 1:18 PM
Following the message published by Ron Zambrano of Razbam Simulations, we believe that it is necessary to rectify some of the unfounded allegations and to reassure the Community that everything is being done to resolve the current situation promptly and for the benefit of all concerned.
 
Without entering into the details of matters that are confidential to the parties, we firmly reject the allegations that the current disagreement between Eagle Dynamics and Razbam Simulations would be as stated by Razbam “due to circumstances completely beyond our control" and that it is "a situation that Razbam Simulations did not seek".
 
On the contrary, the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights, and for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims.
 
We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us. 

Please rest assured, we are addressing the situation with the utmost attention and constructiveness.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Nick Grey

RAZBAM followed with this reply:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1226492074233434182

razbam_prowler — 04/07/2024 4:21 AM
@here 
Dear customers and community
RAZBAM Simulations is actively working with EAGLE DYNAMICS to reach an agreement to resolve our internal dispute and we don't want the discussion that our public declaration has generated to escalate any further. We want to assure you that it has never been nor will it be our intention to abandon our products. We look forward to a prompt and satisfactory resolution, turn the page, and move forward.

Best regards
Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

This was the last of the official announcements from both management parties.

While both teams have officially been very quiet due to the delicate nature of issues at hand there has been some events that have come up and caused concerns.

Some Anti-Virus programs were picking up a false positive on some DCS DLLs. Sadly it seemed to be worse on some of the RAZBAM modules fueling fears of issues with the modules. This can be solved by adding the DCS install folder to the exceptions for your anti-virus software, this happens from time to time so this was nothing new. 

The M2000 had some issues, including CTDs. This was an accidental merge of some changes one of the developers was working on. Once it was identified the changes were reverted and the issues were solved (although nothing was noted in the changelog at the time). This was not anything related to compatibility with the core game.

June 12th at Midnight the F-15E radar stopped working. While we have internally identified the issue no fix has been presented as of yet. once we have solid news on that we will share that ASAP. Again this had nothing to do with core compatibility but rather something in the coding of the F-15E.
UPDATE: When version 2.9.6 drops it will contain a fix for the F-15E radar. This fix was created by our team and not given to us by any other party. 

Refunds

While at first, we were maintaining our normal refund rules, we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it. You may open a ticket here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/ for a refund, but we ask for patience as it may take up to 7-10 business days to process your refund. 

Other modules will not be refunded at this time, all of these are out of Early Access and remain working. It is our commitment that no matter what happens we will do our best to make sure these continue to work into the future. We understand those of you who remember losing the Hawk, this is not something we intend to do again.

Steam refunds are based on the play time of the core game, not the individual module. It is their policy and they handle the refunds. As we understand it, no refunds have been accepted by Valve. All modules continue to work, aside from the current radar issues with the F-15E which we hope will be addressed sooner than later. South Atlantic continues to be updated and as I stated above, the other older modules we plan to make sure they continue to work into the foreseeable future. 

Is ED broke?
No, Eagle Dynamics is very healthy aside from this dispute currently, all other 3rd Parties and the ED development team continue to work and push new and exciting content out to you. 

Is ED pushing things out because they are out of money?
No, most of these recent products have been scheduled for quite some time now, into early last year. The 3rd Party products are based on when they are ready from their own team, although some delays here and there squished some release dates together, nothing has been out of the ordinary except more goodies in a short amount of time. 

How can you keep selling the F-15E or other modules?
Right now we are working within the framework of the legal advice moving forward and not wanting to cause any more riffs or issues. It's a complex process at this point and most likely why it seems to be moving so slowly for everyone. Nothing more can be said about that right now. Sorry.

We cannot comment on any more conspiracy theories than this. This was an unfortunate disagreement that had been going on for some time and finally went public. I can only speak for Eagle Dynamics but I believe both teams want to resolve this as fast as possible and get back to making virtual airplanes. 

The discussion below was the old thread. This new thread may be moderated a little harder, so please be nice to each other, know that all the other customers in here discussing this with you are in the same boat and probably want the same thing. So let's be open to their opinions and concerns and understand they are allowed to have them as much as you are. Anything from any user here without an official tag won't be making any official comments, me and @BIGNEWY will only comment on publically available info as this is a legal matter at the end of the day.

I cannot say enough, on behalf of all of us at Eagle Dynamics, how sorry we are that you are being made, in part by us, to go through this. We are committed to getting this sorted as soon as we can.

Thanks
The ED Team

 

Edited July 5, 2024 by NineLine
Added Update to F-15E radar issue

[NineLine]

Yet another purge has been completed, you can find the old posts here: 

 

I kindly remind you all, once again, to treat each other with the kindness and respect you expect to be treated with. Everyone has their opinions and we are allowing them to be shared here within reason. We are also being more easygoing unless people start stepping well over the line. 

Nothing is new from the official statements above. I know there is a lot of noise out there, and it's hard to determine what is real and what is Reddit rambling. All I can say right now is to stick to the official comments and try and remain as patient as you can be for a resolution one way or another. It's a legal issue currently and we cannot and will not comment further than what we have already.

Thanks
The ED Team. 

 

[NineLine]

10 hours ago, some1 said:

Bomb fuses in Razbam modules are broken since the core weapons update in May. That's what you call "so far so good":

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/351882-the-fuze-option-for-multiple-bombs-per-rack-is-not-available/

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/350058-not-possible-to-use-new-fuze-options-on-weapons-in-cft-stations

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/357674-cbus-fall-too-short-and-bombs-are-only-triggered-individually

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/350035-mk-20-in-ccip-drops-several-hundred-feet-short-of-the-ccip-piper

It will only get worse with time.

 

We cannot make the same promises with the F-15E as we have also stated as its very early in EA.

It's almost like some of you refuse to read the first post

Quote

 

While at first, we were maintaining our normal refund rules, we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it. You may open a ticket here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/ for a refund, but we ask for patience as it may take up to 7-10 business days to process your refund. 

Other modules will not be refunded at this time, all of these are out of Early Access and remain working. It is our commitment that no matter what happens we will do our best to make sure these continue to work into the future. We understand those of you who remember losing the Hawk, this is not something we intend to do again.

 

About time for another purge as I see many of you spinning back on to the same topics over and over. This thread is like the movie Groundhog Day, and the only way to stop it is for a resolution to be found. 

On that note, of not reading the first post, welcome to the newest purge, you can still find all the old messages in the old thread, this one is once again cleaned. Lets try again to discuss what is in the first post as that is all we will discuss here. Thanks. 

[afnav130]

Something must have happened. Per RB discord from Prowler aka Ron.

"@everyone
ED cannot ensure the operational status of our aircraft without our involvement and a clear resolution. Claims suggesting otherwise may mislead customers into thinking full maintenance can be achieved independently, contrary to statements made by their community manager. This clarification is being issued to address the widespread speculation and misinformation circulating online."

[AndyJWest]

3 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Something must have happened. Per RB discord from Prowler aka Ron.

"@everyone
ED cannot ensure the operational status of our aircraft without our involvement and a clear resolution. Claims suggesting otherwise may mislead customers into thinking full maintenance can be achieved independently, contrary to statements made by their community manager. This clarification is being issued to address the widespread speculation and misinformation circulating online."

Nothing new there. RB have already stated that ED don't have the source code. ED have not contradicted this statement. Without source code, 'full maintenance' clearly isn't possible. At best, all ED can do is try to ensure that DCS world updates don't break existing functionality - which will get harder and harder to achieve as code diverges more and more from its state when RB ceased updating. 

[Oban]

According to a prominent YouTuber, who claimed to have heard it from the horses mouth, RB and ED will cease their mutual contract(s) ... there's 2 horses, Nick Grey and Ron Zambrano, anyone out of that group has no official capacity. Certainly no 3rd party RB devs have any official capacity.

I'm dissapointed that he would have stated that, and then went on to back pedal.

The clown show continues to roll through town.

 

21 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

Something must have happened. Per RB discord from Prowler aka Ron.

"@everyone
ED cannot ensure the operational status of our aircraft without our involvement and a clear resolution. Claims suggesting otherwise may mislead customers into thinking full maintenance can be achieved independently, contrary to statements made by their community manager. This clarification is being issued to address the widespread speculation and misinformation circulating online."

How much speculation and misinformation is being spread by HIS 3rd party developers?, I don't think any ED employee has leaked confidential documents, contracts, and conversations. 

I'm guessing he's addressing the statement that Kate made late last year, that ED would do their best to keep the F15E alive.

ED doesn't have the source code, and RB doesn't have the SDK.. so nobody is going to be doing anything, anytime soon.

[afnav130]

6 minutes ago, Oban said:

According to a prominent YouTuber, who claimed to have heard it from the horses mouth, RB and ED will cease their mutual contract(s) ... there's 2 horses, Nick Grey and Ron Zambrano, anyone out of that group has no official capacity. Certainly no 3rd party RB devs have any official capacity.

I'm dissapointed that he would have stated that, and then went on to back pedal.

The clown show continues to roll through town.

 

How much speculation and misinformation is being spread by HIS 3rd party developers?, I don't think any ED employee has leaked confidential documents, contracts, and conversations. 

I'm guessing he's addressing the statement that Kate made late last year, that ED would do their best to keep the F15E alive.

ED doesn't have the source code, and RB doesn't have the SDK.. so nobody is going to be doing anything, anytime soon.

Thats fine but that was months ago. Why post stuff today? Seems odd timing to wait several months to do that. And who is this prominent YouTuber?

[NineLine]

24 minutes ago, AndyJWest said:

Nothing new there. RB have already stated that ED don't have the source code. ED have not contradicted this statement. Without source code, 'full maintenance' clearly isn't possible. At best, all ED can do is try to ensure that DCS world updates don't break existing functionality - which will get harder and harder to achieve as code diverges more and more from its state when RB ceased updating. 

Yes, and that is all we have ever claimed, I am not sure what brought on this 'statement' but we have never said anything other than maintaining the current usability. 

[WipeUout]

This is a little confusing, what is the difference between:

"ensure the operational status of our aircraft"

and

"maintaining the current usability"

?

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

6 minutes ago, WipeUout said:

This is a little confusing, what is the difference between:

"ensure the operational status of our aircraft"

and

"maintaining the current usability"

?

The former would include bugfixes and ensuring every feature that is currently included works optimally.
The latter is trying to make sure future DCS core updates don't break the module.

[NineLine]

Just now, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

The former would include bugfixes and ensuring every feature that is currently included works optimally.
The latter is trying to make sure future DCS core updates don't break the module.

There should be no real way to break the module if we maintain core update compatibility. It's a lot of work, but we are committed to doing keep them working as is until this is solved. Its nothing new though. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, NineLine said:

we are committed to doing keep them working as is

It is indeed nothing new, but it is nice to see it re-confirmed from time to time as this conflict drags on. Priorities shift after all, and there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we as users are not privy to that does influence decisions and long-term plans.
So I thank you nonetheless for confirming your commitment

[NineLine]

21 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

It is indeed nothing new, but it is nice to see it re-confirmed from time to time as this conflict drags on. Priorities shift after all, and there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we as users are not privy to that does influence decisions and long-term plans.
So I thank you nonetheless for confirming your commitment

I get it, doubt creeps in for all of us as this drags on. Its hard to stay positive. 

[Oban]

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

Thats fine but that was months ago. Why post stuff today? Seems odd timing to wait several months to do that. And who is this prominent YouTuber?

Indeed, but which "Community manager" was he referring to, as Kate isn't a community manager, she's the COO of the company IIRC.

The YouTuber - CommandT

[PD919]

Ron is always so combative with his posts.  It definitely feels like RAZBAM has something their hiding beneath their complaint.  Especially when every "leak" has come from RAZBAM.  

[NineLine]

12 minutes ago, Oban said:

Indeed, but which "Community manager" was he referring to, as Kate isn't a community manager, she's the COO of the company IIRC.

The YouTuber - CommandT

Me and BN have stated the same line, so it has to be one of us. 

[Oban]

3 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Me and BN have stated the same line, so it has to be one of us. 

Interesting.... I don't believe there's been any attempt to spread "misinformation" from the ED camp, I can't say the same with regards to the RB camp.

Things are definately not good.

[Mizzy]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

Yes, and that is all we have ever claimed, I am not sure what brought on this 'statement' but we have never said anything other than maintaining the current usability. 

Calm down everyone, it's just zambrano trying to muddy the waters yet again. There is nothing knew in his so called statement and the only misinformation is coming from zambrano's discord. In my opinion, once ED gets rid of zambrano, the batter for all of DCS. Btw, it has also been stated zamrano doesn't hold the rights to the source code, he just sold it and packaged it for selling to ED.

Mizzy

[tribbin]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

I get it, doubt creeps in for all of us as this drags on. Its hard to stay positive. 

Would you say that keeping module/core compatibility affects core-feature progress? For instance when the modules need different Vulkan API calls and such.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Oban said:

Interesting.... I don't believe there's been any attempt to spread "misinformation" from the ED camp, I can't say the same with regards to the RB camp.

Things are definately not good.

Well if I or BIGNEWY have misled anyone on our capabilities to maintain the RB products as is for the foreseeable future, I apologize, but I think we have been pretty clear, I hope. 

2 minutes ago, tribbin said:

Would you say that keeping module/core compatibility affects core-feature progress? For instance when the modules need different Vulkan API calls and such.

I can't really say, I only know that it takes a little more work on our end to keep compatibility with the core. Generally, if a module is not updated by a 3rd party for a new version, it will not work, or work properly. Hence why we maintained an older version for the ill-fated Hawk long ago, now the team has managed to work around that to keep things functioning. 

[tribbin]

2 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Well if I or BIGNEWY have misled anyone on our capabilities to maintain the RB products as is for the foreseeable future, I apologize, but I think we have been pretty clear, I hope. 

I don't own any RAZBAM module. The single problem I have is that people (who commit countless hours to a module) are not informed in any way about the potential risks when they purchase a RAZBAM module.

[Oban]

9 minutes ago, tribbin said:

I don't own any RAZBAM module. The single problem I have is that people (who commit countless hours to a module) are not informed in any way about the potential risks when they purchase a RAZBAM module.

Ah, but there's potential risks with anything software related, and any module, these risks are normally in the small print of the EULA.

For example Windows updates fix a lot of things, and you can chose to update or not, but you run the risk of other programs not working.

Here's the reality v's risk, if ED were to suddenly go belly up, then every single module becomes irrelevant, it's game over.

If RB were to face the same situation, then only selected modules would be effected and cease to work eventually, but there's no guarantee that timeline is imminent or the issues manifest over several years time... if it's the latter, why not keep making hay whilst the sun shines? The F15E is still awesome fun, I will continue to play my Razbam stuff right up until I can't, as they wont load... that could be in 10 years time... it could be less, the thing is nobody can predict software life spans, unless there's a kill code written into it.

The whole wolrd was supposed to melt due to the Y2K virus, it turned out to be a nothing burger.... Razbam products are no different.

I'm less concerned with Ron's "clarification" message, than what I am with the Comments that CommandT made on his last youtube video, stating he had it direct from the horses mouth, ED and RB were pretty much dead...then goes to great legths to walk back what he said, and then states it's not a rumour, its fact. To me,  there's only 2 horses, that's Nick Grey, and Ron Zambrano, outside of those 2, the rest are donkeys wanting to be horses ( And No, I'm 100% not calling Nineline/Big Newy Donkeys).

In all honesty, I also believe that the normal 202X and beyond video due this week should be suspended until the Razbam situation has been resolved one way or the other.  releasing it when tensions within the community over the Razbam would be in poor taste in my opinion.

[tribbin]

14 minutes ago, Oban said:

Ah, but there's potential risks with anything software related, and any module, these risks are normally in the small print of the EULA.

There is an active legal dispute that has frozen development on the modules, of which one is in early access. Saying "read the EULA" does not cut it.

[Beirut]

21 minutes ago, Oban said:

In all honesty, I also believe that the normal 202X and beyond video due this week should be suspended until the Razbam situation has been resolved one way or the other.

 

Oh yeah, that would go over real well. 

 

[tribbin]

4 minutes ago, Beirut said:

Oh yeah, that would go over real well. 

 

I'm a simple man. I just want to see a glimpse of the MiG-17 in the video to get my dopamine fix. And preferably something on Vulkan.