waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[NineLine]

First off, there is nothing new to report as of the date of this post, this new thread is simply a clean-up and ease of access for all current official information on the current issues between Eagle Dynamics & RAZBAM. Hopefully, this will make it easier to see the current known information and weed it out from the theories, guesses and suggestions in the other thread. If you want to see that one, the link will be available at the bottom of the post.

The first public knowledge of the disagreement happened with an announcement on the RAZBAM Discord here:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1225494495458627634

razbam_prowler — 04/04/2024 10:17 AM
Dear Customers and Community,

You may have noticed that the that the latest RAZBAM announcements does not include a changelog or any updates for our products. We would like to inform you that, until further notice, all support for RAZBAM-developed aircraft modules is on hold. This suspension encompasses, but is not limited to, bug fixes and updates.

We want to reaffirm our unwavering commitment to this exceptional community, our current customers, and prospective clients. Unfortunately, due to circumstances completely beyond our control, we are temporarily unable to continue our work at this time. Our team, a group of highly skilled and professional developers, is first and foremost made up of dedicated individuals. They invest not only their expertise but also their personal dedication and sacrifice into crafting our products. For many, this work provides essential supplementary income or even constitutes their primary livelihood.

We are hopeful for a swift resolution so that we can resume our normal operations. However, until these issues are resolved, we will not be issuing any updates about our products. We ask for your understanding during this challenging period, a situation that RAZBAM Simulations did not seek and which has previously seriously affected other parties, for example Heatblur Simulations. We have been patient, perhaps too patient, waiting for a resolution from the responsible parties. Now, we find it necessary to take a stand and await a practical solution to this deadlock.

I also want to extend my heartfelt thanks to my fellow third-party developers. Their support, once aware of the relevant facts, has been overwhelming. Thank you for elevating DCS to new heights; it truly wouldn't be the remarkable experience it is without your contributions.

The suspension will remain in effect until the significant issues between Eagle Dynamics and RAZBAM Simulations LLC are resolved to our mutual satisfaction. Once these issues have been addressed, we will resume our standard practices of bug fixing, updates, and upgrades, just as we have since our inception as developers for DCS. We hope this resolution results in a more stable and optimistic future for DCS and all 3rd Party Developers.

Best regards

Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

Eagle Dynamics was compelled to respond shortly after on their Discord found here:

https://discord.com/channels/542985647502393346/543013214485610520/1225540029493936219

04/04/2024 1:18 PM
Following the message published by Ron Zambrano of Razbam Simulations, we believe that it is necessary to rectify some of the unfounded allegations and to reassure the Community that everything is being done to resolve the current situation promptly and for the benefit of all concerned.
 
Without entering into the details of matters that are confidential to the parties, we firmly reject the allegations that the current disagreement between Eagle Dynamics and Razbam Simulations would be as stated by Razbam “due to circumstances completely beyond our control" and that it is "a situation that Razbam Simulations did not seek".
 
On the contrary, the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights, and for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims.
 
We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us. 

Please rest assured, we are addressing the situation with the utmost attention and constructiveness.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Nick Grey

RAZBAM followed with this reply:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1226492074233434182

razbam_prowler — 04/07/2024 4:21 AM
@here 
Dear customers and community
RAZBAM Simulations is actively working with EAGLE DYNAMICS to reach an agreement to resolve our internal dispute and we don't want the discussion that our public declaration has generated to escalate any further. We want to assure you that it has never been nor will it be our intention to abandon our products. We look forward to a prompt and satisfactory resolution, turn the page, and move forward.

Best regards
Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

This was the last of the official announcements from both management parties.

While both teams have officially been very quiet due to the delicate nature of issues at hand there has been some events that have come up and caused concerns.

Some Anti-Virus programs were picking up a false positive on some DCS DLLs. Sadly it seemed to be worse on some of the RAZBAM modules fueling fears of issues with the modules. This can be solved by adding the DCS install folder to the exceptions for your anti-virus software, this happens from time to time so this was nothing new. 

The M2000 had some issues, including CTDs. This was an accidental merge of some changes one of the developers was working on. Once it was identified the changes were reverted and the issues were solved (although nothing was noted in the changelog at the time). This was not anything related to compatibility with the core game.

June 12th at Midnight the F-15E radar stopped working. While we have internally identified the issue no fix has been presented as of yet. once we have solid news on that we will share that ASAP. Again this had nothing to do with core compatibility but rather something in the coding of the F-15E.
UPDATE: When version 2.9.6 drops it will contain a fix for the F-15E radar. This fix was created by our team and not given to us by any other party. 

Refunds

While at first, we were maintaining our normal refund rules, we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it. You may open a ticket here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/ for a refund, but we ask for patience as it may take up to 7-10 business days to process your refund. 

Other modules will not be refunded at this time, all of these are out of Early Access and remain working. It is our commitment that no matter what happens we will do our best to make sure these continue to work into the future. We understand those of you who remember losing the Hawk, this is not something we intend to do again.

Steam refunds are based on the play time of the core game, not the individual module. It is their policy and they handle the refunds. As we understand it, no refunds have been accepted by Valve. All modules continue to work, aside from the current radar issues with the F-15E which we hope will be addressed sooner than later. South Atlantic continues to be updated and as I stated above, the other older modules we plan to make sure they continue to work into the foreseeable future. 

Is ED broke?
No, Eagle Dynamics is very healthy aside from this dispute currently, all other 3rd Parties and the ED development team continue to work and push new and exciting content out to you. 

Is ED pushing things out because they are out of money?
No, most of these recent products have been scheduled for quite some time now, into early last year. The 3rd Party products are based on when they are ready from their own team, although some delays here and there squished some release dates together, nothing has been out of the ordinary except more goodies in a short amount of time. 

How can you keep selling the F-15E or other modules?
Right now we are working within the framework of the legal advice moving forward and not wanting to cause any more riffs or issues. It's a complex process at this point and most likely why it seems to be moving so slowly for everyone. Nothing more can be said about that right now. Sorry.

We cannot comment on any more conspiracy theories than this. This was an unfortunate disagreement that had been going on for some time and finally went public. I can only speak for Eagle Dynamics but I believe both teams want to resolve this as fast as possible and get back to making virtual airplanes. 

The discussion below was the old thread. This new thread may be moderated a little harder, so please be nice to each other, know that all the other customers in here discussing this with you are in the same boat and probably want the same thing. So let's be open to their opinions and concerns and understand they are allowed to have them as much as you are. Anything from any user here without an official tag won't be making any official comments, me and @BIGNEWY will only comment on publically available info as this is a legal matter at the end of the day.

I cannot say enough, on behalf of all of us at Eagle Dynamics, how sorry we are that you are being made, in part by us, to go through this. We are committed to getting this sorted as soon as we can.

Thanks
The ED Team

 

Edited July 5 by NineLine
Added Update to F-15E radar issue

[NineLine]

Yet another purge has been completed, you can find the old posts here: 

 

I kindly remind you all, once again, to treat each other with the kindness and respect you expect to be treated with. Everyone has their opinions and we are allowing them to be shared here within reason. We are also being more easygoing unless people start stepping well over the line. 

Nothing is new from the official statements above. I know there is a lot of noise out there, and it's hard to determine what is real and what is Reddit rambling. All I can say right now is to stick to the official comments and try and remain as patient as you can be for a resolution one way or another. It's a legal issue currently and we cannot and will not comment further than what we have already.

Thanks
The ED Team. 

 

[NineLine]

10 hours ago, some1 said:

Bomb fuses in Razbam modules are broken since the core weapons update in May. That's what you call "so far so good":

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/351882-the-fuze-option-for-multiple-bombs-per-rack-is-not-available/

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/350058-not-possible-to-use-new-fuze-options-on-weapons-in-cft-stations

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/357674-cbus-fall-too-short-and-bombs-are-only-triggered-individually

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/350035-mk-20-in-ccip-drops-several-hundred-feet-short-of-the-ccip-piper

It will only get worse with time.

 

We cannot make the same promises with the F-15E as we have also stated as its very early in EA.

It's almost like some of you refuse to read the first post

Quote

 

While at first, we were maintaining our normal refund rules, we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it. You may open a ticket here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/ for a refund, but we ask for patience as it may take up to 7-10 business days to process your refund. 

Other modules will not be refunded at this time, all of these are out of Early Access and remain working. It is our commitment that no matter what happens we will do our best to make sure these continue to work into the future. We understand those of you who remember losing the Hawk, this is not something we intend to do again.

 

About time for another purge as I see many of you spinning back on to the same topics over and over. This thread is like the movie Groundhog Day, and the only way to stop it is for a resolution to be found. 

On that note, of not reading the first post, welcome to the newest purge, you can still find all the old messages in the old thread, this one is once again cleaned. Lets try again to discuss what is in the first post as that is all we will discuss here. Thanks. 

[draconus]

54 minutes ago, NineLine said:

We cannot make the same promises with the F-15E as we have also stated as its very early in EA.

Being EA has nothing to do with it. It's one of the issues that came up with DCS updates after the "fiasco" so please make an effort to keep the module working as it was before the update, same as you did with the radar fix, thanks.

[some1]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

We cannot make the same promises with the F-15E as we have also stated as its very early in EA.

It's almost like some of you refuse to read the first post

Three out of four threads you've quoted are about issues in the Harrier, the module that's supposed to be "working". The Eagle simply shows the same problem as the Harrier.

All these issues stem from the core DCS bomb fusing update. ED has changed default bomb fuses so the bombs behave differently, especially cluster munitions. ED also require changes in the aircraft weapons.lua file to allow fuse adjustment in the payload manager by the user. Of course there's no one there to make these changes in Razbam modules, the aircraft systems are also incompatible with the new fuse settings. So we get problems with targeting solution, some payload combinations that are straight up unusable, and problems with some campaign missions that use these payloads. 

As you can see, changes to DCS core are already starting to cause issues. Issues that aren't being addressed. All of this was reported in the appropriate forum sections in May, 5 months ago, so it shouldn't be anything new to you or ED.

Edited October 24 by some1

[Horns]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Being EA has nothing to do with it. It's one of the issues that came up with DCS updates after the "fiasco" so please make an effort to keep the module working as it was before the update, same as you did with the radar fix, thanks.

Whether EA is a factor in the need for this maintenance or not is irrelevant. The quote from NL you quoted contains the answer, they aren't doing maintenance on the F-15E, only RB's feature complete modules.

[draconus]

7 minutes ago, Horns said:

Whether EA is a factor in the need for this maintenance or not is irrelevant. The quote from NL you quoted contains the answer, they aren't doing maintenance on the F-15E, only RB's feature complete modules.

That's the problem. First time I hear they won't maintain also F-15E module as is.

[NineLine]

8 hours ago, some1 said:

Three out of four threads you've quoted are about issues in the Harrier, the module that's supposed to be "working". The Eagle simply shows the same problem as the Harrier.

All these issues stem from the core DCS bomb fusing update. ED has changed default bomb fuses so the bombs behave differently, especially cluster munitions. ED also require changes in the aircraft weapons.lua file to allow fuse adjustment in the payload manager by the user. Of course there's no one there to make these changes in Razbam modules, the aircraft systems are also incompatible with the new fuse settings. So we get problems with targeting solution, some payload combinations that are straight up unusable, and problems with some campaign missions that use these payloads. 

As you can see, changes to DCS core are already starting to cause issues. Issues that aren't being addressed. All of this was reported in the appropriate forum sections in May, 5 months ago, so it shouldn't be anything new to you or ED.

 

You are correct, but the modules still work. When the resolution comes, ether way we can look at such things. As of right now, we will not mess with their modules(keeping them working is on our end not messing with the modules), and obviously, they are not messing with their modules. As you can see there is a disagreement between the two teams, of course things are going to be rocky during that time. 

Improvements we add to the game of course are not being adopted by the developer when the developer is not working on the module. So you are mixing issues. 

 

[Mizzy]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

That's the problem. First time I hear they won't maintain also F-15E module as is.

Yes, I understand it that all modules will be maintained within DCS including the current state of the F15E as is. That's what I have been telling people.

Mizzy

[NineLine]

7 hours ago, draconus said:

That's the problem. First time I hear they won't maintain also F-15E module as is.

The F-15E is undecided, if things fall completely apart we will need to decide if the F-15E should remain in its current state never to be changed. You are asking things we cannot see right now as we do not know how all this will play out. Hence the reason for the refund on the F-15E.

[Mizzy]

3 minutes ago, NineLine said:

The F-15E is undecided, if things fall completely apart we will need to decide if the F-15E should remain in its current state never to be changed. You are asking things we cannot see right now as we do not know how all this will play out. Hence the reason for the refund on the F-15E.

Ahh right, understood, I was wrong.

[NineLine]

12 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Ahh right, understood, I was wrong.

Right now there is a chance things will go back to mostly normal and the development will proceed. But if the worst thing happens and it would mean that that module would never develop anymore, then a bigger decision would need to be made. 

[Rudel_chw]

17 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Right now there is a chance things will go back to mostly normal and the development will proceed.

 

there is?  this is the most encouraging post I've read on this thread

[JuiceIsLoose]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Right now there is a chance things will go back to mostly normal and the development will proceed. But if the worst thing happens and it would mean that that module would never develop anymore, then a bigger decision would need to be made. 

So now it sounds like there is a real possibility that if things don't go well that there is a possibility of the F-15E no longer being in DCS. I'm assuming that's what you are eluding to in these last few responses? If that were the case would ED issue actual Refunds (money back to the payment method used) or just Store Credit, which is what is being done now. The fact that it is now being put out there that there is the possibility of it not being maintained, how is there still not a warning or disclaimer for users?

[NineLine]

12 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

So now it sounds like there is a real possibility that if things don't go well that there is a possibility of the F-15E no longer being in DCS. I'm assuming that's what you are eluding to in these last few responses? If that were the case would ED issue actual Refunds (money back to the payment method used) or just Store Credit, which is what is being done now. The fact that it is now being put out there that there is the possibility of it not being maintained, how is there still not a warning or disclaimer for users?

We can't answer that or we would have answered that. Anything is possible right now, but we continue to strive for a positive outcome. The reason for the refund currently is that it is and will not receive any updates until this is solved. At the time and currently not knowing when that will be solved (or if) we decided this was the best decision. 

Again from the 1st post:

Quote

we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it.

Also from the first post about continuing to sell and disclaimers, etc:
 

Quote

How can you keep selling the F-15E or other modules?
Right now we are working within the framework of the legal advice moving forward and not wanting to cause any more riffs or issues. It's a complex process at this point and most likely why it seems to be moving so slowly for everyone. Nothing more can be said about that right now. Sorry.

 

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

Right now there is a chance things will go back to mostly normal and the development will proceed. But if the worst thing happens and it would mean that that module would never develop anymore, then a bigger decision would need to be made. 

 

I love the F-15E, and I can live with it staying as is, but not becoming less than it is. That would be a bummer.

[NineLine]

Just now, Beirut said:

 

I love the F-15E, and I can live with it staying as is, but not becoming less than it is. That would be a bummer.

We want it to continue, I hate talking about the what-ifs, I would rather stay positive that this will all work out. 

[Mizzy]

23 hours ago, NineLine said:

Right now there is a chance things will go back to mostly normal and the development will proceed. But if the worst thing happens and it would mean that that module would never develop anymore, then a bigger decision would need to be made. 

 

Edited October 25 by Mizzy
My post was judged as sarcastic and disrespectful.

[draconus]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

As of right now, we will not mess with their modules(keeping them working is on our end not messing with the modules), and obviously, they are not messing with their modules.

We were told before that you will keep the Razbam modules as they are and try to not break them with DCS updates (and that you know how to prevent it from happening). Yet you did it however serious the fusing and targeting bugs are for you. Of course you don't have to mess with the module to keep it working with changed DCS features but you have to put in some work so DCS feeds these modules with older data format. I don't feel like explaining the coders how to code but the problem is the lack of will, I see.

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

We were told before that you will keep the Razbam modules as they are and try to not break them with DCS updates (and that you know how to prevent it from happening). Yet you did it however serious the fusing and targeting bugs are for you. Of course you don't have to mess with the module to keep it working with changed DCS features but you have to put in some work so DCS feeds these modules with older data format. I don't feel like explaining the coders how to code but the problem is the lack of will, I see.

A number of those issues are already reported. 

[afnav130]

8 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Oh this sounds encouraging. I always predicted that Razbam and Eagle Dynamics would work it out together and continue in Partnership. These things happen from time to time, which is why I never took sides on the matter. Patience is a virtue people, let's have a group hug, light a fire and sing some songs.

Mizzy 

 

What's encouraging? From day one there was a "chance". There is always a "chance" until there isn't. A statement such as "some new things have me feeling more hopeful" would be different. 

 

The lawyers will make a decision when it benefits them the most. They don't care about you, Razbam, ED or whatnot. They only truly care about their bank accounts. 

[YoYo]

11 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Oh this sounds encouraging. I always predicted that Razbam and Eagle Dynamics would work it out together and continue in Partnership. These things happen from time to time, which is why I never took sides on the matter. Patience is a virtue people, let's have a group hug, light a fire and sing some songs.

Mizzy 

 

Especially because of the MiG-23, which I've been waiting for for years. It would be nice to have it in DCS someday. Maybe @OverStratos has full rights to it for now and will continue working on it, but under a different brand?

[Panny]

22 hours ago, NineLine said:

Right now there is a chance things will go back to mostly normal and the development will proceed. But if the worst thing happens and it would mean that that module would never develop anymore, then a bigger decision would need to be made. 

I appreciate your intent on staying positive with this; but in terms of it not being developed further - I couldn't see any situation in which its continued sale would be justified. While it has great functionality (it's my go to jet), there are some pretty fundamental bugs pre-April that hold it back... multi-crew desync being the biggest error in a big way. GPS clock, smart weapons page getting hung up and other switchology bugs as core problems.

As you say, a bigger decision would need to be made; and its existing state, just for some of the reasons listed above don't bode well 

I'm very much trying to remain optimistic but harder to do as we plow into November and friends of mine are starting to drift away due to this

 

Cheers

[Mizzy]

11 hours ago, afnav130 said:

What's encouraging? From day one there was a "chance". There is always a "chance" until there isn't. A statement such as "some new things have me feeling more hopeful" would be different. 

 

The lawyers will make a decision when it benefits them the most. They don't care about you, Razbam, ED or whatnot. They only truly care about their bank accounts. 

Sorry, I may have been a bit too subtle. Anyway my post was what is referred to as 'tongue in cheek'  My apologies if anyone took it seriously.

Mizzy

8 hours ago, YoYo said:

Especially because of the MiG-23, which I've been waiting for for years. It would be nice to have it in DCS someday. Maybe @OverStratos has full rights to it for now and will continue working on it, but under a different brand?

I believe this is what will happen under a different brand or even directly published on ED Store page. I think Razbam were only publishing it (like all their modules including the SA map), not actually developing it themselves, or himself.

Mizzy

[Horns]

On 6/18/2024 at 6:55 AM, NineLine said:

Refunds

While at first, we were maintaining our normal refund rules, we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it. You may open a ticket here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/ for a refund, but we ask for patience as it may take up to 7-10 business days to process your refund. 

Other modules will not be refunded at this time, all of these are out of Early Access and remain working. It is our commitment that no matter what happens we will do our best to make sure these continue to work into the future. We understand those of you who remember losing the Hawk, this is not something we intend to do again.

 

I guess the second paragraph of the above quote, taken from the first post, defines the scope of the commitment that was made to try to keep Razbam modules working - I do see that it's clear that after speaking about the F-15E, ED has committed to do their best to keep the "other modules" (ie Razbam modules other than the F-15E) working. Is that accurate?

I'd missed that in the first post, I'd assumed ED wouldn't do any Mudhen maintenance for fear of breaking something else (given it's EA) but I hadn't realized there was anything more specific said about it.