Air brake use in dogfight

[topol-m]

Guys i have several questions concerning the air brake and its use. Is it used in maneuverable combat for anything more than speed decrease? I mean is there a situation with certain conditions (G, speed, etc.) where using the brake will help you perform the manoeuvre better or faster? If there is any can the conditions be summarized so that it is known where you should use air brake and where you shouldn`t?

As the air brakes are different in shape and position in every fighter i guess, if they have any other use rather than speed reducement, they should affect the behaviour of the aircraft differently.

[GGTharos]

In general, and I'm not certain of this, I think a high-g pull can close or damage your airbrake.

 

In the F-15, the Airbrake will close automatically when you exceed 25 units of AoA (about 13-14 degrees).

 

Now that you've read the above, remember that none of this is applicable to LOMAC.

 

When you are dogfighting however, it is best to resist using the airbrake - do something else with your airspeed. If you need to control your closure, barrel roll, go high, out of plane, do anything other than wasting your speed with the airbrake.

[topol-m]

In general, and I'm not certain of this, I think a high-g pull can close or damage your airbrake.

 

In the F-15, the Airbrake will close automatically when you exceed 25 units of AoA (about 13-14 degrees).

 

Now that you've read the above, remember that none of this is applicable to LOMAC.

 

When you are dogfighting however, it is best to resist using the airbrake - do something else with your airspeed. If you need to control your closure, barrel roll, go high, out of plane, do anything other than wasting your speed with the airbrake.

 

All right i`ll follow your advice. Another thing: i`m often using the "J" at speeds in-between 700-800kmh as that way i can make fastest turns with smaler radius are you using that or some higher speed is better in certain occasions?

[GGTharos]

While I've only flown the flanker and mig occasionally, your best speed is just what you are doing 700-800kph to begin a hard turn (you might try 900 though since you'll lose speed in the start). Ideally you want to maintain this speed, however keep in mind that if you get the enemy to slow down, your best turn is at slow speed (500kph) but he must be slow also.

 

I don't use J, I manage the throttle myself.

 

The speed you want to use in each engagement depends on what you want to do and what your opponent is doing ... and most importantly, what you want him to do. :D

 

There's books written on the subject, such as Robert Shaw's Air Combat Tactics book, so you can imagine I can't really give you a simple answer :)

Edited May 4, 2009 by GGTharos

[topol-m]

Thanks. I should read one of those. :thumbup:

[RvEYoda]

Never use J in dogfight. Manage speed by pull v throttle

 

Also, corner speed doesn't always give you a better turn rate towards the bandit, even if

it gives you a better turn rate vs *the world* ;)

 

Example : put a line on the top end of a stick. On the other end of the line is an object.

Spin the stick and the object rotates, but never reaches the stick. Doesnt matter how fast

you go (find your corner speed), you are still just making circles around the bandit, pulling

G for no obvious reason, although this could have other uses...

Edited May 4, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

If that happens, go out of plane and cut up the circle, man ... ;)

[topol-m]

Never use J in dogfight. Manage speed by pull v throttle

 

Also, corner speed doesn't always give you a better turn rate towards the bandit, even if

it gives you a better turn rate vs *the world* ;)

 

Example : put a line on the top end of a stick. On the other end of the line is an object.

Spin the stick and the object rotates, but never reaches the stick. Doesnt matter how fast

you go (find your corner speed), you are still just making circles around the bandit, pulling

G for no obvious reason, although this could have other uses...

 

I don`t quite get it why not to use J. Isn`t 1 thing less to distract you better? Also if i need some immediate acceleration or speed reducement i can turn off j and use the throttle.

[GGTharos]

Because if you use J you will never learn to manage your energy :)

[topol-m]

Because if you use J you will never learn to manage your energy :)

 

Now i get it :)

[Vekkinho]

When in a dogfight try maintaining your speed somewhere in the neighborhood of 700-800 km/h but never use Autothrottle "J" key to maintain it. Throttling up and down, relaxing G and doing some Hi and Low Yo-yo maneuvers is a better and best way here! There's a pretty adequate Yo-Yo explanation sortie in the training missions in LOFC. Use it, fly it and you'll get the picture when and why to perform such out-of-plane maneuvers.

 

On the other hand, I like having some airbrake assistance in case your bandit turns scissors on you. Scissors, both horizontal, vertical or mixed is such a maneuver initiated by a defending participant of a dogfight in order to force attacker into overshoot and once he does tides would turn. He'd have to shake you off his six. So the general idea of scissors fight is to reduce the turn radii as much as possible and You remember that tightest turns are executed at very slow speeds just slightly above the stall speed. So when you recognize a bandit going scissors extend airbrake in order to reduce the speed ASAP. Kick in some flaps too, these would give you some extra lift at slow speeds and act as an airfoil spoiler preventing you from unwanted accelration.

[GGTharos]

If you're sucked into a scissors, use the appropriate maneuvering to win. If you're going to overshoot hard, don't bother slowing down, go high and defeat the shot that'll come at your tailpipe if the bandit is missile equipped, then come down and peel him like a grape while he's hanging below you with no airspeed. HE CANNOT DODGE!

 

If you're in a scissors you can reasonably win already, finesse is the name of the game - put your nose where it needs to be and forget the airbrake. If he pops the airbrake, and you aren't in a rolling scissors already (why aren't you?) do just that. USE your excess energy, don't just waste it.

[104th_Crunch]

Highly recommended Topol if you haven't watched it...

VIDEO :: BFM 101: Understanding Corner Speed

Flankertraining.com

Also,

 

How to Live and Die in the Virtual Sky

Edited May 4, 2009 by Crunch

[Grimes]

There is a highly documented case where a F-14 was in a WVR fight with an enemy aircraft and the pilot, "hit the brakes" causing the enemy pilot to "Fly right by"

 

No in seriousness. It can work somewhat efficiently depending on your enemies actions. But thats banking on them to make a drastic mistake giving you an advantage.

[104th_Crunch]

[Moa]

Using airbrakes is not a very good idea unless your opponent is very blind. You lose energy and if they're behind you they can see them come out and do the same thing, or they could climb and preserve energy and separation while you burn energy. I you do manage an overshoot then they still have more energy than you can can climb or dive away while you lumber along. If you don't get your opponent on your first shot they can come back and finish you.

 

In short, you reduce your options (reduced energy) while they can retain theirs. Not smart and best left as a gimmick for the movies. Better to maneuver using the advantages of your aircraft (which may be instantanoues or sustained turn rate, roll rate, dive/climb rate, pitch rate pullup after a steep dive - you don't always have to yank on the stick as hard as you can!).

 

Remember, its not about turning harder but about making decisions faster. Read about OODA, its how you beat an opponent even if they have a better aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)

 

Oh yeah, don't forget to keep an eye on the fuel gauge. No point engaging when you are near empty (I've had opponents crash on me before for lack of fuel, that's just poor airmanship).

[topol-m]

Thanks guys for the useful replies. BTW has anyone used Cobra or similar manoeuvre successfully in dogfight in the game? (Tacview or some .avi will be nice) It should be good in reducing your speed fast and if your enemy is too close he should pass infront of you giving you some advantage.

[A.S]

Guys i have several questions concerning the air brake and its use. Is it used in maneuverable combat for anything more than speed decrease? I mean is there a situation with certain conditions (G, speed, etc.) where using the brake will help you perform the manoeuvre better or faster? If there is any can the conditions be summarized so that it is known where you should use air brake and where you shouldn`t?

As the air brakes are different in shape and position in every fighter i guess, if they have any other use rather than speed reducement, they should affect the behaviour of the aircraft differently.

 

F-15 Lockon ..NO....only speed decrease or drag increase... not sure though how LO deals with AoA and Drag-variation.

 

F-16 Falcon ..MAYBE ....as far the boards are on your tail, you could probably use them slightly to get the "nose around"... inertia point of drag..in specific cases

[GGTharos]

There are some cases where you can use the cobra in LO to help with a dogfight. In LO it doesn't slow you down as much as it should, so it doesn't hurt you as bad. It's particularly effective with missiles if you want to scoot across a circle.

 

Should you attempt to Cobra in front of a guy chasing you though, you just turn yourself into an easy target. If the enemy is too close he will go high if he is smart, and you may or may not get a snapshot opportunity. If he is not that smart, he will shoot out right in front of you and well ... you will probably resolve all his life problems :D

 

Thanks guys for the useful replies. BTW has anyone used Cobra or similar manoeuvre successfully in dogfight in the game? (Tacview or some .avi will be nice) It should be good in reducing your speed fast and if your enemy is too close he should pass infront of you giving you some advantage.

[Wilde]

There's a video showing the Cobra in combat.

 

But some of this stuff is really unrealistic. And you need enormous situational awareness to do that in actual combat. If you slow down like that with someone being ready to shoot you you're dead.

[Vekkinho]

Cobra is a simple animation triggered with a K press, it has nothing to do with flight modeling in LOFC, like GGT said it should bleed speed more than it does as the entire 50-60m^2 silouethe acts as the airbrake. So using it IRL during dogfight is very, very bad idea!

 

I had an idea of banning players that use Cobra with IR missiles, it can be considered a cheating, just like the ECM blinking is. In fact there are better chances of seeing ECM blinkers IRL than Cobra dogfighters!

[nscode]

like GGT said it should bleed speed more than it does as the entire 50-60m^2 silouethe acts as the airbrake.

 

that + your engines point backwords for a moment ;)

[topol-m]

There's a video showing the Cobra in combat.

 

But some of this stuff is really unrealistic. And you need enormous situational awareness to do that in actual combat. If you slow down like that with someone being ready to shoot you you're dead.

 

Thanks man. I see now the cobra is much more useful when the 2 fighters pass by eachother, like in 00:27 and 00:42, than when someone is chasing you but as the others said its a risky one and if you don`t do it right in the exact moment you can lose too much.

 

I had an idea of banning players that use Cobra with IR missiles, it can be considered a cheating, just like the ECM blinking is. In fact there are better chances of seeing ECM blinkers IRL than Cobra dogfighters!

 

Why should it be considered cheating?

[GGTharos]

If you look closely at this video you'll see that most of these maneuvers are something you can maybe do once - once someone figures it out, you're in trouble. For one, I can't believe that mirage missed - he did everything wrong, too for the overshoot.

 

Of course, it's also easy to be a critic.

[Moa]

There's a video showing the Cobra in combat.

 

But some of this stuff is really unrealistic. And you need enormous situational awareness to do that in actual combat. If you slow down like that with someone being ready to shoot you you're dead.

 

LOL, "In combat" here means "In LockOn". Hmmm, not quite the same thing methinks. Remember if you are slow enough to initiate a Cobra you were probably already killed by an opponent that kept their speed up, you just don't know it yet.