So about that Case I Expedited Sierra Hotel recovery

[DmitriKozlowsky]

So about that Case I Expedited Sierra Hotel recovery.

I am sure most here have seen that F-35C ramp strike on Vinson in 2022. Attributed to pilot error in not having auto-throttle enabled. He was doing expedited Case I recovery. Looked like he was doing Case I. Break at bow, gear down, flaps down, hook down (already down), turn to final, and trap. 

So whats the difference? My guess is its a compressed Case I. Bow break at eh bow , instead of 1nm in front. Base turn before seeing  deck rounddown, turn to final "Ball' just inside 3/4nm.

I have a hard time lining up outside 3/4nm, let alone inside of that, in DCS.

[Micr0]

It essentially comes down to the airspeed and altitude when coming in for the break. The ultimate expedited recovery is the "Triple Nickel" (aka <profanity> Hot Break) with 'nickle' being an American slang term for five. Normal break is 350kts, 800ft, break at the bow. SHB is 500kts, 500ft, and break at 0.5nm tacan distance behind the ship - and if you're feeling it, you throw it into burner for a couple seconds over the LSOs.

That particular F-35 pilot was doing his first ever expedited recovery and thus was only at 435kts. But it would appear the adrenaline still got to him. It was a lot to do in a short time, and it could be overwhelming for any pilot given the circumstances  

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 7/5/2024 at 9:39 AM, Micr0 said:

It essentially comes down to the airspeed and altitude when coming in for the break. The ultimate expedited recovery is the "Triple Nickel" (aka <profanity> Hot Break) with 'nickle' being an American slang term for five. Normal break is 350kts, 800ft, break at the bow. SHB is 500kts, 500ft, and break at 0.5nm tacan distance behind the ship - and if you're feeling it, you throw it into burner for a couple seconds over the LSOs.

That particular F-35 pilot was doing his first ever expedited recovery and thus was only at 435kts. But it would appear the adrenaline still got to him. It was a lot to do in a short time, and it could be overwhelming for any pilot given the circumstances  

I watched Ward Carroll's YT video digest of this mishap. Basically pilot did not have PLM (Precision Landing Mode) enabled. PLM in F-35C controls throttle, and flight surfaces, and PLM flies the ball, not the pilot. The pilot's helmet visor 'HUD' has a 3 WIRE line drawn. THe pilot places flight path marker on that line and aircraft dioes the rest. The system is tripple or quad redudntant and if ON, allegedly NEVER INOP. Always works. Hard to beleive, but thats what is claimed. So with PLM enabled , with path marker on synthetic #3 wire, the aircraft flies itself , coupled with carrier CILS, as if it were in a tractor beam. But it has to be ON and enabled. In excitemment,pilot failed to to turn it on. So aircraft got low and slow due to power.

Kind of like seat belts and air bags. THey only work when used and enabled. To be fair, more then few pilots and passengers and victims on ground perished becouse flight crew did not fully understand auto-pilot and similar control aids if the aircraft.

So as result the 'BLUE' unclassified NATOPS for F-35C now has BOLD FACE (required and memorized) "PILOT SHALL ENGAGE PLM FOR FINAL APPROACH TO TRAP".

I did not know, but it makes sense, that there are three NATOPS for every air system in Navy and Marine Corps

Blue- unclassified. General flight manual Dash 1 for operation and safety

Yellow- confidential, no foreign unauthorized exposure. Expanded flight envelope. Prohibited maneuvers.

Red - classified. I am guessing for tactics, weapons, communications, maintenance, systems, full flight envelope.

Aircraft can fight in ACM at up to 60 AOA. Crazy, without TVC. Those FBW control laws must be very relaxed. No way a teen 4th gen fighter can fight ACM at 60 AOA. Thats TVC SU-30MK and F-22 territory.

[Dragon1-1]

Another reason not to want the F-35 in DCS. Where's skill in that? Put the FPM on the 3-wire marker, flip the PLM switch, watch as the aircraft lands itself. When you do an SHB in a Tomcat, dead on the numbers (because otherwise you won't make it down), that's legitimately impressive. The Hornet takes plenty of skill, too. It sounds like the F-35 largely trivializes even the SHB, nevermind a regular trap.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

13 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Another reason not to want the F-35 in DCS. Where's skill in that? Put the FPM on the 3-wire marker, flip the PLM switch, watch as the aircraft lands itself. When you do an SHB in a Tomcat, dead on the numbers (because otherwise you won't make it down), that's legitimately impressive. The Hornet takes plenty of skill, too. It sounds like the F-35 largely trivializes even the SHB, nevermind a regular trap.

In F-35 the emphasis is on pilot tactics in combat , not mastering aerodynamics and safety systems of aircraft. If the aircraft cannot stall, regardless of what pilot does, no-matter what AOA he/she flies, whatever G , up to max allowed, then aircraft cannot depart. If aircraft has automatic terrain avoidance. Pilot can concentrate on finding , tracking, and prosecuting target. F-35, sadly has very high per flying hour flying costs, due to maintenance and mission prep requirements for stealth. So hours are better used in tactical traning then flight safety Dash-1 training. SEPECAT Jaguar, F-111, mighty SR-71 were all about flying first, fighting second. Those aircraft departed easily. To exent, all 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen military aircraft are like that. Col. Rich Graham, a SR-71 pilot and former 9th Rec. Wing Commander stated that in SR-71, flying safely is first and primary mission of crew. The reece mission is secondary. They crews had wide lattitude to abort, without recrimimination. No mission was worth aircraft and crew. On critical missions, SR-71 flew as two ship cell, with third in airborne reserve far behind. Only one, primary, Blackbird would proceed to target . If it had to abort due to systems ossie or crew decision, the send Blackbird would go on to target.

Mark my words, future blocks of F-35 and follow on 6th gen may elimininate pilot flight controls, or jhave them as standby. So no need for stick throttle or rudder pedals. Contro, would be by thought and gesture. But you must think in English. hehe.

[Cab]

15 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It sounds like the F-35 largely trivializes even the SHB, nevermind a regular trap.

I believe the Super Hornets have the same carrier landing systems.

Edited July 8, 2024 by Cab

[Dragon1-1]

The latest versions do have it, but early models (the ones we're the least unlikely to get in DCS) didn't. They just had ACL system for Case III, not unlike the Hornet.

7 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

To exent, all 2nd, 3rd and 4th gen military aircraft are like that.

Why do you think my favorites are the Tomcat and the Phantom, with MiG-19 also up there?  That said, I do have a soft spot for the Viper, despite it holding your hand plenty in a fight. That said, I'd like the Jaguar and the F-111 more than another 4th+ gen jet.

7 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

So no need for stick throttle or rudder pedals. Contro, would be by thought and gesture. But you must think in English. hehe.

Physical interfaces will always be there, for the simple fact that gestures and thoughts are messy. With a stick and throttle, or at least the thumbstick on the latter, there's no doubt what you're telling the jet to do. That said, they might switch to fiddling with the tablet full time.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

18 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The latest versions do have it, but early models (the ones we're the least unlikely to get in DCS) didn't. They just had ACL system for Case III, not unlike the Hornet.

Why do you think my favorites are the Tomcat and the Phantom, with MiG-19 also up there?  That said, I do have a soft spot for the Viper, despite it holding your hand plenty in a fight. That said, I'd like the Jaguar and the F-111 more than another 4th+ gen jet.

Physical interfaces will always be there, for the simple fact that gestures and thoughts are messy. With a stick and throttle, or at least the thumbstick on the latter, there's no doubt what you're telling the jet to do. That said, they might switch to fiddling with the tablet full time.

A manned drone.