Have problems flying the Hind, need help with the TRIM buttons.

[Stratos]

Been out of Hind for a while flying the Hornet and the Viper, so I have a question now as I cannot remember how I used to fly the beast. Let me explain, there are two "TRIM" buttons:

- Trim button

- Trim reset

How I have to fly the chopper? Imagine I'm flying straight and level and want to make a turn, should I press trim button during the turn and unpress when I'm on the new course and steady? should I press nothing, make my turn and then press the trim? If yes, which one of the two do I use?

Can someone please explain detailed how to properly actuate those two TRIM buttons? Thanks a lot!

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, Stratos said:

Been out of Hind for a while flying the Hornet and the Viper, so I have a question now as I cannot remember how I used to fly the beast. Let me explain, there are two "TRIM" buttons:

- Trim button

- Trim reset

How I have to fly the chopper? Imagine I'm flying straight and level and want to make a turn, should I press trim button during the turn and unpress when I'm on the new course and steady? should I press nothing, make my turn and then press the trim? If yes, which one of the two do I use?

Can someone please explain detailed how to properly actuate those two TRIM buttons? Thanks a lot!

1. I assume you have a spring centered stick?

2. how you use trim is personal preference, but I will explain how it works 

The trim interfaces with the autopilot roll and pitch. In the same way in Mi-8 you can turn AP off then back on to change what pitch/roll attitude it holds, you can do this with trim button 

When you press trim, it will cancel autopilot (like caging a gyro), and when you release trim it will will hold the pitch/roll you are at when the trim is released 

The pitch AP is much more aggressive then roll, so when you press trim, if pitch AP is giving a lot of inputs, you will feel the helicopter pitch in response. This is realistic and can be worked around by 

1. You can hold trim to maneuver, if you like 

2. or trim  2-3x to get it perfect 

Your pitch attitude will change a lot with speed. If you last trimmed/turned on AP in hover, it will constantly try to hold about 3-5 degrees nose up. But to fly at medium speed, your nose needs to be level. And to cruise at 260 kmh, you need -5-7 degrees pitch below the horizon 

The pitch AP will go from 0% to 100% within 5 degrees, so somewhat important to trim if speed, center of gravity; etc change significantly.  
 

Trim reset is only returning any trim to center, it does not interface with AP at all 

Also. AP will not get in the way of many maneuvers. When you turn on AP or trim, it not only takes into account current attitude, but takes your current cyclic position as ”center.” Then, if cyclic moves from this new “center,” it will move the autopilot in that direction to “help you” maneuver. 
 

For example, you will notice that it will roll faster with roll auto  pilot on!

So pressing trim to maneuver works for some people, but you might miss out on how this awesome auto pilot will help you maneuver while stabilizing and auto leveling you (if you trim with 0 roll). 
 

For “course,” that is all determined by Yaw AP which is basically entirely separate. You can choose to control it with pedals or binds depending on options you choose, but IMO is a secondary thing that might help, but ultimately makes only a small difference on flying. 
 

Alt/hover/route all use roll/pitch, so not having Yaw AP on won’t hurt much. 

[Raffi75]

4 hours ago, Stratos said:

Been out of Hind for a while flying the Hornet and the Viper, so I have a question now as I cannot remember how I used to fly the beast. Let me explain, there are two "TRIM" buttons:

- Trim button

- Trim reset

How I have to fly the chopper? Imagine I'm flying straight and level and want to make a turn, should I press trim button during the turn and unpress when I'm on the new course and steady? should I press nothing, make my turn and then press the trim? If yes, which one of the two do I use?

Can someone please explain detailed how to properly actuate those two TRIM buttons? Thanks a lot!

You set the helicopter position you need, press the trimmer. You can make minor corrections using the mushroom on the stick (trimming). With the trimmer on, you can still use the control stick. If you want the new position to be remembered, press the trimmer again.

The second function, as the name suggests, is used to set the trimmer to a neutral position.

Generally, the trimmer (button) was used on long flight routes so that the pilot would not get tired. During takeoff or landing, or for minor corrections during maneuvers, the mushroom on the stick is used.

[Stratos]

Ok, got it. I have a Saitek X52, do you recommend flying with YAP AP Off?

One more of thing:

1- I have the sensation I'm flying sideways much of the time, how can I solve that?

 

[Raffi75]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

Ok, got it. I have a Saitek X52, do you recommend flying with YAP AP Off?

One more of thing:

1- I have the sensation I'm flying sideways much of the time, how can I solve that?

 

Yes. I turn off YAW before takeoff (I do the same in Mi-8), I only turn it on when I have a set flight course and I know it will be a longer route.

1 - To fly straight, you have to counteract the drag pedals slightly, so that the ball (turn & slip indicator) is in the middle. Otherwise, you will fly with a slight traverse.

Edited August 17, 2024 by Raffi75

[Stratos]

Now that was really useful!

Time to improve my hover and landing skills now.

[AeriaGloria]

On 8/17/2024 at 7:46 AM, Stratos said:

Ok, got it. I have a Saitek X52, do you recommend flying with YAP AP Off?

One more of thing:

1- I have the sensation I'm flying sideways much of the time, how can I solve that?

 

Yaw AP: Yes I recommend Yaw AP off until you are ready to learn the microswitch system. If the Yaw AP only did heading hold, I would say ignore it. But with microswitch pressed it can stabilize and smoothen your turns, taxi, especially hover. As long as that switch is pressed, it will help you and not hurt you. But while learning, struggling with the heading hold should be saved for later 

Trim: I trim pretty frequently. When you trim, it is taking into account where stick is, what is considered movement from that spot.

 

So if I fly 250 kmh, trim, then fly 140 kmh. The AP is not only trying to pull my nose down. It will also try to roll me right (since you need more left cyclic as speed increases, and last trim at 250 kmh was when stick was slightly left. Now at 140 kmh stick is more right and Roll AP thinks I want to roll right because cyclic is moved from trim point)

the trim hat does not interact with AP. It will tell AP new center position, but will not update the pitch/roll attitude hold. It’s best for small corrections when your speed hasn’t changed much. Using too much of it rather then force trim can mess up the AP 

In videos, you will hear Mi-8/24 and Ka-50 pilots constantly pushing trim. Since Mi-24 is so unstable in roll, I usually use hat trim for roll unless I need more then a handful of clicks/holding it a second or two. 
 

Ka-50 has similar trim controls attitude hold as Mi-24, you can hear the trim button more subtly hear but still pretty often. Usually before after maneuver/speed change. My rule of thumb is is if I change speed by 25-50 kmh, I should probably trim because my attitude and controls have changed a lot 

 

Edited August 18, 2024 by AeriaGloria

[Stratos]

Have been flying pretty smoothly NOE with YAW AP off, much better, and trimming every time I change, speed, attitude or altitude. Now, what are those microswitches you're talking about?

[admiki]

59 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Have been flying pretty smoothly NOE with YAW AP off, much better, and trimming every time I change, speed, attitude or altitude. Now, what are those microswitches you're talking about?

There are switches under pedal feet rests which engage/disengage heading hold. Pedals are rigged in such way that just by putting your feet on pedals will press those switches and disengage heading hold, leaving you just with damper function of yaw AP. IRL, you need only one of those to be pressed to disengage heading hold, in DCS it's on/off only.

[Stratos]

Holy crap! I use a Saitek for rudder, do you guys use those somehow?

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, Stratos said:

Have been flying pretty smoothly NOE with YAW AP off, much better, and trimming every time I change, speed, attitude or altitude. Now, what are those microswitches you're talking about?

32 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Holy crap! I use a Saitek for rudder, do you guys use those somehow?

I have a whole guide on weapons and autopilot if you like 

 

As Miki said, they enable or disable heading hold, and when pressed and heading hold disabled will still dampen yaw movement and help you maneuver more smoothly. But exactly how it works in DCS depends on settings 

Make sure “pedal auto move” is off, as when on it’ll make the heading hold trim your pedals when it runs out of its 18% authority. By default, microswitch is “pressed” when you move pedals 9% from center, but you often need less then 9% pedal to turn, so it causes heading hold to fight your turns 

You can set it to be full manual and only work using the microswitch binds, but the microswitch binds will still work by default to override what your pedals are doing. 
 

In real life, the microswitch is pressed 98-99% of the time, the pilot has to deliberately remove feet from pedals or only push with their heel. The only reason I care about it so much, is because when microswitch is pressed and instead of heading hold you get a dampening/stabilization mode, and that stabilization mode is awesome, even if it’s subtle and hard to tell it’s there. But for me, every little bit helps, and it’s realistic to boot. That being said, unless you looked closely, you probably wouldn’t have easy time noticing the Yaw dampening/stabilization mode

My guide will have all the info about the settings and what they do if you go straight to the Yaw AP section

[Stratos]

Rgr, will print the guide. In the meantime, IS there anything more I need to adjust to make things easier for flying?

 

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

Rgr, will print the guide. In the meantime, IS there anything more I need to adjust to make things easier for flying?

 

Well you can choose to not have trim also trim pedals if you like. You have it on “pedal deflection” which is the default I talked about, where you have 9% around center where heading hold is on and might fight with your turns 

Some people like it, I don’t because why have something barely useful mess with your turns, but different strokes for different folks. 
 

Also choice if you want instant or return to center trim, but I’m sure you know that and it’s a slightly separate topic