Do radio compasses really not work?

[RyanR]

For the life of me, I can't get radio compasses going. A key piece of navigation for the period. Chuck's guides say that this is because ED has failed to implement any of this infrastructure.... and if we're lucky, these instruments might work using ILS frequencies? Which didn't exist for the period?

So, are we relegated to the F10 map, or kneeboard markers? Might as well just make GPS available for 1944, too. NS430.

Sheesh.

-Ryan

[Yoda967]

Ryan,

The state of the technology at the time was that radio navigation required longer range and therefore lower frequencies...thus larger, heavier radios. Radio navigation was mainly handled from the ground in the early 1940s, except for larger aircraft. Chuck's guide for the Mosquito gives a detailed explanation of how this is simulated in the DCS Mosquito. 

Fighters, though, relied on manned ground stations which could be called on a voice channel. The operator on the ground would reply with a request for a  long transmission from the aircraft, and use direction finding to determine the bearing. With that determined, they could direct the aicraft to fly a heading until seeing the airfield, or they could coordinate with other D/F facilities by landline and then provide a vector. Edit: Aircraft would be assigned a "homing" frequency, which would be tuned by ground crews before each mission into one of the four available for selection in the cockpit.

A deep dive into RAF procedures for this (which also applied to the USAAF) show them to be pretty elaborate and they constantly worked to improve.

Otherwise, a fighter pilot had to rely on visual ground references, and I recommend reading Geoffrey Wellum's book "First Light" which contains a harrowing experience he had in full IFR while in a Spitfire. 

Edited August 17, 2024 by Yoda967

[RyanR]

 

To which, I gotta reply: "Yeah, but..."

The tech being in its infancy doesn't explain its complete absence in DCS on the WWII maps.... and that it apparently only works in-game on modern-ILS frequencies.

-Ryan

[Slippa]

46 minutes ago, Yoda967 said:

I recommend reading Geoffrey Wellum's book "First Light" which contains a harrowing experience he had in full IFR while in a Spitfire.

I can recommend First Light too and I can never read his name or see a clip of him without it giving me a little smile. I met him a couple of times, he signed a couple of books for me and we had a good long chat. He was an absolute diamond. 

As for the radios and navigational aids leaving a lot to be desired I have to agree.

[Yoda967]

On 8/16/2024 at 7:47 PM, RyanR said:

 

To which, I gotta reply: "Yeah, but..."

The tech being in its infancy doesn't explain its complete absence in DCS on the WWII maps.... and that it apparently only works in-game on modern-ILS frequencies.

-Ryan

It's completely absent in DCS on the WWII maps because it wasn't available in the WWII aircraft currently in DCS. There is no way to see GPS or VORs or ILSs in the Spitfire cockpit. Or the P-47. Or the Mustang. Because it simply didn't exist in the 1940s. If you got lost, you called on the homing frequency assigned, and you hoped somebody heard you. (What does work is there because DCS is a sandbox, so it benefits the aircraft that can use it.)

I get it. You're used to the tools at your disposal in modern aircraft. Me, too. Dead reckoning is hard work.

That's just the way it was.

It takes practice, but it's really satisfying when you can hand-fly an hour and forty-five minute round-robin from Detling or High Halden across the channel and back using only a compass and your eyeballs. I totally recommend it!

 

 

 

[razo+r]

Like already said, radio infrastructure on the WWII maps is non-existend. However, you can manually set up beacons that you can use to home in to. The Mosquito can use NDBs and the P-51D-30 also has some ADF, but if I remember correctly that one uses VHF frequencies. The German birds I am not sure right now as ED has been tinkering with their radio equipment in complete silence and I don't know the current state of it. They used to work with ILS frequencies at some point, but that shouldn't be possible. 

[RyanR]

Thanks. My brain is farting on where (AKA what sim) I used radio-nav on a USAAF plane. Maybe I'm just thinking of the F-86. All my memories seem to merge into one these days.

I've mostly been doing WWII sims for the last 30 years.... but got sucked into the jet age in DCS, now I'm trying to get back into taildraggers again. First time in DCS. It's just odd that this stuff basically isn't implemented, considering the "every rivet" mindset in the sim.

-Ryan

[Yoda967]

@RyanR, I think movies and television, in their drive to deliver cinematic spectacle, have done us a disservice. The first episode of "Masters of the Air" shows the wing of B-17s launching into cloudy skies and trying to form up in full IFR. They just weren't equipped for that...even under purely visual conditions, it took precise flying, a good stopwatch, and an active participation by the entire crew to watch for other aircraft.

Rhubarb missions and later Rodeos were expected to be flown below any overcast so that pilots could navigate visually by dead reckoning. 

The was a system in Britain called "Darky" that provided a radio beam for bombers returning in darkness to follow, but it included the use of light beacons and procedural voice control as the bombers approached their landing fields.

[bfr]

2 hours ago, Yoda967 said:

@RyanR, I think movies and television, in their drive to deliver cinematic spectacle, have done us a disservice. The first episode of "Masters of the Air" shows the wing of B-17s launching into cloudy skies and trying to form up in full IFR. They just weren't equipped for that...even under purely visual conditions, it took precise flying, a good stopwatch, and an active participation by the entire crew to watch for other aircraft.

Rhubarb missions and later Rodeos were expected to be flown below any overcast so that pilots could navigate visually by dead reckoning. 

The was a system in Britain called "Darky" that provided a radio beam for bombers returning in darkness to follow, but it included the use of light beacons and procedural voice control as the bombers approached their landing fields.

RAF tinkered with a few radio based systems with varying degrees of assistance and success (Oboe, Gee, Gee H) as did the Luftwaffe. All for bombers though given the kit and crew resource required.  Certainly nothing like modern radio nav aids in terms of end user experience.

[British_Dragon_14]

 

On 8/17/2024 at 1:38 AM, RyanR said:

For the life of me, I can't get radio compasses going. A key piece of navigation for the period. Chuck's guides say that this is because ED has failed to implement any of this infrastructure.... and if we're lucky, these instruments might work using ILS frequencies? Which didn't exist for the period?

So, are we relegated to the F10 map, or kneeboard markers? Might as well just make GPS available for 1944, too. NS430.

Sheesh.

-Ryan

Are you talking about the FW 190 A8, Dora and 109 K specifically? As in the homing radio beacon instrument on the dashboards? I've never seen the two needle indicators moving myself.

Edited October 5, 2024 by British_Dragon_14