DCS P-51D-25-NA: Ammo Loadout/Rate of Fire Question

[Bowie]

Assuming the advertised P-51D Ammo Loadout:

Inner Guns E/A: 400

Outer Gun Pair E/A: 270

Total: 1880 (800 + 1080)

 

Getting ~ Twenty(20) seconds of All-guns fire, and an additional ~ Fifteen(15) seconds of Inner-guns only fire.

Rounds remaining (Rearm/Refuel board) after All-guns fire ceases: ~ 22%.

Doing the math:

If All-guns fire 270 rounds e/a, that's Sixteen-Hundred-Twenty(1620) rounds of All-guns fire.

Or, ~ 86% of the 1880 total rounds.

That's also 260 rounds remaining, which equate to ~ 14%, after All-guns fire ceases, for the Inner-guns only fire.

Or, 130 rounds e/a for Inner-guns only fire.

 

270 rounds in Twenty(20) seconds is 13.5 rounds/second(810 RPM), which is spec.

Inner-guns only fire of 130 rounds e/a, at that rate, would be ~ 9.6 seconds.

 

So, where does the 22%(+8%) rounds remaining after All-guns fire ceases come from,

and the additional ~ 5.4 seconds of Inner-guns only fire?

 

Please advise.

 

Bowie

[Art-J]

As per P-51D.lua file in coremods folder, inner guns have 500 rounds each. Remaining ones have 270 as advertized.

[Bowie]

6 hours ago, Art-J said:

As per P-51D.lua file in coremods folder, inner guns have 500 rounds each. Remaining ones have 270 as advertized.

Thanks, AJ.

Just occurred to me to check that, as recalled a Bf-109 mod that addressed armament dealing w/ an ED install file.

 

From the DCS P-51D Mustang Manual/P. 50: (as well as other official sources)

"The P-51D is equipped with six free-firing .50 caliber machine guns, three in each wing. The guns are manually charged on the ground and fire simultaneously when the Gun Trigger switch is pressed on the front of the control stick grip. The maximum ammunition capacity is 400 rounds for each of the inboard guns and 270 rounds for the center and outboard guns for a total ammunition load of 1880 rounds. The guns can be adjusted on the ground for different convergence points based on the tactical needs of the mission. Normally the convergence point is set to 250 - 300 yards. The amount of ammunition remaining is not indicated in the cockpit."

From P.51:

"If the mission needs require longer firing time, it’s possible to remove the center gun in each wing. This allows each outboard gun to be loaded with 500 rounds."

 

From Eagle Dynamics/DCS World OpenBeta\CoreMods\WWII Units\P-51D\"P-51D.lua" file:

276      }),

            -- Left wing inner M2
            BrowningM2({
                muzzle_pos = {-0.028, -0.447, -2.032},
                effect_arg_number = 434,
                mixes = {
                    --[[ API-T '44 ]]   {3, 5, 3, 6},
                    --[[ API-T '44 S ]] {3, 3, 4, 3, 3},
                    --[[ API '44 ]]     {3, 5},
                    --[[ AP '43 ]]      {2, 2, 5, 5},
                    --[[ AP-T '43 ]]    {2, 2, 5, 5, 6},
                },
                count = 500,
                barrel_circular_error = 0.0,
                rates = {803},
                azimuth_initial = -0.379,
                elevation_initial = 0.364,
                supply_position = {-0.724, -0.180, -3.000},
                ejector_pos = {-1.055, -0.123, -0.008},
298      }),

            -- Right wing inner M2
            BrowningM2({
                muzzle_pos = {-0.028, -0.447, 2.032},
                effect_arg_number = 433,
                mixes = {
                    --[[ API-T '44 ]]   {3, 6, 3, 5},
                    --[[ API-T '44 S ]] {3, 4, 3, 3, 3},
                    --[[ API '44 ]]     {3, 5},
                    --[[ AP '43 ]]      {2, 2, 5, 5},
                    --[[ AP-T '43 ]]    {2, 2, 5, 5, 6},
                },
                count = 500,
                barrel_circular_error = 0.0,
                rates = {797},
                azimuth_initial = 0.379,
                elevation_initial = 0.364,
                supply_position = {-0.724, -0.180, 3.000},
                ejector_pos = {-1.055, -0.123, 0.008},

 

@NineLine

Can we get this file line-item correction (Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\CoreMods\WWII Units\P-51D\"P-51D.lua") addressed in the next update?

 

EDIT: Have attempted to edit this file in the "Eagle Dynamics\DCS World", as well as create a file path/copy and edit it in "SavedGames\DCS",

No joy, as the ED path is locked, and the SavedGames path is not recognized.

EDIT.1: Successfully edited this file in the "Eagle Dynamics\DCS World", using Notepad++ Administrator permission.

Assume this will have Server Authentication problems on line, but works for SP mode.

 

Please advise.

 

Bowie

Edited August 31, 2024 by Bowie

[Art-J]

500 per inner gun (for 2080 total) was a possible max loadout config in some production blocks of -D version so I guess that's the one we've got.

It's not the first time DCS manual differs a bit from what is actually implemented in the module. Engine version is  another example if I recall correctly? I wouldn't think about it too much.

[Bowie]

17 hours ago, Art-J said:

500 per inner gun (for 2080 total) was a possible max loadout config in some production blocks of -D version so I guess that's the one we've got.

It's not the first time DCS manual differs a bit from what is actually implemented in the module. Engine version is  another example if I recall correctly? I wouldn't think about it too much.

North American P-51D_K Mustang

"...The inboard guns each had 400 rpg, and the others each had 270 rpg. However, Mustang users had the options of removing two of the guns and having just four, with 400 rounds each, and some pilots did actually select this option."

Haven't found any support for the "500 Rd." inner gun theory.

Believe that this is simply an "attention to detail" issue.

 

Looked into the Bf 109K-4, and found 450 RPG for the MG 131's, and 60 RPG for the 30mm MK 108.

These should be 300, and 65, respectively.

Can we get these file line-item corrections (Eagle Dynamics\DCS World OpenBeta\CoreMods\WWII Units\Weapons\"Weapons.lua") addressed in the next update as well?

 

Along w/ that correction, also created .ula's for both the Bf 109F-4 (MG 151/20 & MG 17), and G-6 (MG 151/20 & MG 131), with the correct load-outs as well.

They work great.

Let me know if you're interested.

@NineLine

 

Please advise.

 

Bowie

 

Edited August 31, 2024 by Bowie

[Art-J]

14 hours ago, Bowie said:

Haven't found any support for the "500 Rd." inner gun theory.

Flight handbook AN 01-60JE-1 and Maintenance Manual NA-5865 say otherwise. Screenshot from the latter, courtesy of WW2aircraft.net forum, is shown below.

That being said, max load was reduced by Technical Order 01-60JE-14 in January '45 to 400 to improve feeding reliability in high G maneuvers - see the 2nd screen. New planes would have it implemented from the get go, while older ones were to be field-modified. I guess that's where the 400 notion comes from.

One might go now into philosophical debate about what flavour of P-51D should be / is the supposed to be represented in DCS (pre-T.O. or post-T.O.) but one way or the other, 500 is also a correct option and thus I dont think ED will bother with changing it. 

 

Edited September 1, 2024 by Art-J

[PawlaczGMD]

bro is trying to cuck us on ammo

[Bowie]

On 9/1/2024 at 6:34 AM, Art-J said:

Flight handbook AN 01-60JE-1 and Maintenance Manual NA-5865 say otherwise. Screenshot from the latter, courtesy of WW2aircraft.net forum, is shown below.

That being said, max load was reduced by Technical Order 01-60JE-14 in January '45 to 400 to improve feeding reliability in high G maneuvers - see the 2nd screen. New planes would have it implemented from the get go, while older ones were to be field-modified. I guess that's where the 400 notion comes from.

One might go now into philosophical debate about what flavour of P-51D should be / is the supposed to be represented in DCS (pre-T.O. or post-T.O.) but one way or the other, 500 is also a correct option and thus I dont think ED will bother with changing it. 

 

 

 

May have even see that once, but didn't remember the ammo count detail.

Thanks for the source, AJ.

So, now have both, but will prob. put the OEM 500 back in, as it was/is apparently correct for Normandy, contrary to DCS documentation.

Call it strafing rounds, and will ignore it, and continue to use the Two-gun fire as a low ammo warning, to knock it off and head for home.

 

Bowie