Constant pitch up with force feedback active - but cant deactivate force feed back because I use it

[darkman222]

A known issue is the constant pitching up that comes when force feedback is active. solution is to switch it off. Problem is: I have the FFBeast and use force feedback.

The interesting thing is, that this pitching up is not happening on my second PC ( a laptop with DCS installed) that never had a force feedback device. On this PC the force feedback setting does not matter.

DCS log attached.

Edit: I just tested with "force feedback" checkbox off. Force feedback seems to work although its not checked. So why do we have that checkbox then?

dcs.log

Edited October 6, 2024 by darkman222

[MAXsenna]

A known issue is the constant pitching up that comes when force feedback is active. solution is to switch it off. Problem is: I have the FFBeast and use force feedback.
The interesting thing is, that this pitching up is not happening on my second PC ( a laptop with DCS installed) that never had a force feedback device. On this PC the force feedback setting does not matter.
DCS log attached.
Edit: I just tested with "force feedback" checkbox off. Force feedback seems to work although its not checked. So why do we have that checkbox then?
dcs.log

What's your settings in special and FFB tune?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[darkman222]

Thats my settings.

And I found why that checkbox is needed. If unchecked trimming the aircraft does not move the physical stick.

So it needs to be checked.

What seemed to work is to connect the FFB stick, start dcs with the "force feedback" checkbox unchecked. Then check it and trimming seems to work without the F4 pitching up.

Its not the most convenient thing but at least it works.

Here are my settings.

null

[MAXsenna]

@darkman222

I confused myself. The Tomcat has an option for FFB trimming. It just works for me with defaults. Did you swap the axis under the FFB tuning? It's all I can think of. 

EDIT: The Beast has its own software, right? It probably force FFB on even if you turn it off in DCS. 

Edited October 6, 2024 by MAXsenna

[darkman222]

Where should I look for "FFB tuning"? In DCS I did not swap any axis.

The initial problem is that the F4 starts pitching up. If in the DCS menu "force feedback" is disabled the F4 does not pitch up. But trimming does not work. The first part is already a known bug. And no other DCS jet has this issue. Also not the F14 which is by heatblur too.

Yes the FFBeast hast its own software. And you have to install the FFbeast hook script into the DCS scripts folder.

I dont know. It seems to work for now. I am done with testing for today. I hope that when I boot up my PC it will stay as I had it for now, without uncheck start DCS, check, restart DCS. Will try more tomorrow night.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

12 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Where should I look for "FFB tuning"?

Go to your F-4 controls, select "assign axis", select either pitch or roll and then click "FF tune".
Personally I don't need to bother with that, but I use a Rhino, so the FFBeast might be different. You might need to invert your pitch axis in the FF settings too (if trimming works properly for you, you don't need to invert axis).

 

Edited October 6, 2024 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
fixed the screenshot

[darkman222]

What you say is that I should invert the pitch axis in the FFBeast software and invert in the DCS axis tune?

I did another quick test.

If I want to play the F4 without FFB with my Winwing F16 stick, when I am too lazy to mount the FFBeast I have the issue again.

The F4 pitches up. If I use the trimmer switch on the stick, it has no effect. The only help is to disable force feedback in the DCS menu to get my trimmer functionality back without FFB.

Thats pretty annoying, because no other jet has that issue. Should be reported as a bug.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 minute ago, darkman222 said:

What you say is that I should invert the pitch axis in the FFBeast software and invert in the DCS axis tune?

No. What I am saying is that you should test if your trim works properly (trimming up actually trims up, trimming down actually trims down). In the Rhino software, pitch is inverted by default so I don't need to touch anything. It just works.
 

 

2 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Thats pretty annoying, because no other jet has that issue. Should be reported as a bug.

Not necessarily. There has been someone else who commented on this very thing months ago already in another thread. I can't remember on the top of my head what HB's reply was, but I'm sure you'll find it if you read the other FFB threads on this F-4 subforum.
Issues can arise if you have both a FFB stick and a non-FFB stick connected and use both for DCS, but for different aircraft.
I don't have any problems myself: I use the RealSimulator R3L for the F-16, and the Rhino for everything else and it works just fine...

[darkman222]

Trimming works properly. When Force feedback is connected.

I always disconnect the joystick thats not in use. So nothing would interfere.

Well you can get the F4 behave correctly when using the Winwing F16 stick with force feedback disabled.

As soon as I want to play with FFB I have to remember to activate FFB again. Its not the case for the ED F5. So it seems to be a heatblur F4 issue here

 

 

[MAXsenna]

58 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Where should I look for "FFB tuning"? In DCS I did not swap any axis. 

Raven showed you. It's only for FFB. 

You both have different sticks than I. I suppose both work in "DX", Direct input mode. Which DCS supports out of the box. To test this, enable FFB in DCS. DO NOT RUN the sticks software. In any plane, trim, if the x/y behaves incorrectly, you need to swap axis. It's a "DCS feature", which catches most users off guard. Now, if you only want the telemetry provided by your software, you might better with turning off FFB in DCS. To be honest I wish that option was a special setting like PC has implemented. 

48 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

If I want to play the F4 without FFB with my Winwing F16 stick, when I am too lazy to mount the FFBeast I have the issue again.

Seems ridiculous, I don't have to do that. FFB works perfectly for me, even without the telemetry you guys have.. 

49 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Thats pretty annoying, because no other jet has that issue. Should be reported as a bug.

While it's not. I'm betting the Beast software conflicts. OR you have axis conflicts. 

46 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I don't have any problems myself: I use the RealSimulator R3L for the F-16, and the Rhino for everything else and it works just fine...

Exactly! As long as one remember to deactivate unused axis conflicts, most problems evaporate! 

27 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

I always disconnect the joystick thats not in use. Sonothing would interfere.

Axis conflicts if you experience this. 

[darkman222]

21 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

To test this, enable FFB in DCS. DO NOT RUN the sticks software. In any plane, trim, if the x/y behaves incorrectly, you need to swap axis

Did what you said. DCS FFB on without FFBeast software -> Timming works just fine. No swapped axis.

Interesting. I did not realize that without the FFBeast software running DCS is sending its own FFB data.

 

For the ED Aircraft ( F5E , F15 etc) there is no shudder / buffet. Just the dampener. And for the F4 its a constant shaking and buffeting. So you might be right that turning DCSs Force Feedback off is the better idea.

I wonder what DCS FFB and the FFbeast software do, when they are both enabled. Seems like FFBeast overrides the DCS FFB data. But not sure about that.

But the problem is, with DCS FFB off, the trim does not move the physical stick as it would do in real life. The jet trims and the virtual stick moves, but not the physical one. So I seem to keep DCS FFB enable just for that only reason

 

Edit: The easiest way to test this is the Force Trim button in the UH1 Huey. If you press it, the pyhsical stick centers itself. This works only if DCS FFB is enabled.

Edited October 7, 2024 by darkman222

[MAXsenna]

2 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

I did not realize that without the FFBeast software running DCS is sending its own FFB data.

What on earth would make you think that when DCS supports FFB? Just kidding!

3 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

For the ED Aircraft ( F5E , F15 etc) there is no shudder / buffet. Just the dampener. And for the F4 its a constant shaking and buffeting. So you might be right that turning DCSs Force Feedback off is the better idea.

Different strokes. Heatblur goes out of their way to implement FFB. ED has not implement "unrealistic effects". Not that I would know! .
The trainers has some nice ones too.

5 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

I wonder what DCS FFB and the FFbeast software do, when they are both enabled. Seems like FFBeast overrides the DCS FFB data. But not sure about that.

Depends on the module dev, and what you can/choose to implement through Direct Input. The reason you need to run software is to read the telemetry data, and that's why you need to export.lua

7 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

But the problem is, with DCS FFB off, the trim does not move the physical stick as it would do in real life. The jet trims and the virtual stick moves, but not the physical one. So I seem to keep DCS FFB enable just for that only reason

Aha! Now I understand better. Like for @Raven (Elysian Angel) Everything works with her Rhino and the software. It has always been my impression that the Rhino has better software.
I'm gonna be nice and ping @propeler for you. That's the guy to ask about the software for the Beast.

Cheers!

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Rhino has better software

The Rhino software is brilliant and am still discovering new things that improve quality of life  
I have no idea how the FFBeast software works, but it should only be allowed to overwrite effects for modules that don't support FFB natively (the Hornet for example: I find the default stick forces far too stiff for comfort so I set the Rhino software to reduce the spring forces by 50%). Like MAXsenna said you need the telemetry from DCS so the FFB software knows what to do with it.

Something to remember is that DCS generally has an issue with axis inversion. People who have been around for a while know that lots of us need to invert throttles and toe brakes especially or they won't work as you'd expect. Sometimes pitch/roll needs to be inverted as well (VPForce already knows that so does it for you).

Edited October 7, 2024 by Raven (Elysian Angel)

[darkman222]

2 new insights.

If DCS FFB is enabled and the FFBeast software active, both FFB signals are mixed. So thats no option either.

And the pitching up can also be a pitching down, as it seems to remember the last trim state you had when DCS FFB was enabled.

So all I need is something in the FFBeast software that enables "realistic trimming" as described above, moving the physical stick too. So I dont have to have DCS FFB active.

I dont know how active @propeler is in the DCS forums. Probably gonna try to get in touch via discord if nobody here has a solution.

[propeler]

Do you have any curves on axes in DCS? If there are any - FFB will not work correctly. The best approach when setting up FFB - to have clear airplane profile in DCS. Assign axis from ground up and enable FFB options for airplane. Better to test first without Commander running. 

On 10/6/2024 at 11:49 PM, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Issues can arise if you have both a FFB stick and a non-FFB stick connected and use both for DCS, but for different aircraft.

It is not a problem. If the same axis is not assigned to two joysticks connected simultaniously it works without problem.

On 10/6/2024 at 9:54 PM, darkman222 said:

The interesting thing is, that this pitching up is not happening on my second PC ( a laptop with DCS installed) that never had a force feedback device. On this PC the force feedback setting does not matter.

Do you mean that it works correctly with FFB joystick on laptop? 

[propeler]

On 10/6/2024 at 11:25 PM, MAXsenna said:

EDIT: The Beast has its own software, right? It probably force FFB on even if you turn it off in DCS. 

It should work without software. Just native DirectX FFB. 

 

On 10/6/2024 at 11:39 PM, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Go to your F-4 controls, select "assign axis", select either pitch or roll and then click "FF tune".

No need to do it. FFBeast do not require any changes in axis setup in DCS. 

 

[MAXsenna]

7 minutes ago, propeler said:

It should work without software. Just native DirectX FFB. 

I know, and I wrote that further up. 

Cheers! 

[propeler]

On 10/6/2024 at 9:54 PM, darkman222 said:

A known issue is the constant pitching up that comes when force feedback is active

By the way. What do you mean by pitching? Force on the stick? Or non zero input on pitch axis so when centered it pulls up?

[MAXsenna]

1 minute ago, propeler said:

By the way. What do you mean by pitching? Force on the stick? Or non zero input on pitch axis so when centered it pulls up?

He says it's only happening when his WW stick is connected, so I assume he has some sort of axis conflicts. 

[propeler]

1 minute ago, MAXsenna said:

He says it's only happening when his WW stick is connected, so I assume he has some sort of axis conflicts. 

If so then the best solution to try is temporary disabling device in DCS. It is just a two clicks on device column. When WW is needed - enable it, when not - disable. No need disable/enable FFB, just device column in controls

 

[darkman222]

I am not at home at the moment. So I cant test. But why I was mentioning my Laptop without FFB ever installed. I have the suspicion that DCS remembers the last trim it had, and without the FFB stick plugged it just applies the last active trim. Thats why the F4 pitched up once, and in another test it pitched down.

That never happened on the laptop as FFB never was used.

No axis conflict 100 %. As the pitching stops when I disable DCS FFB. It must be the "saved" trim. Also I unplug unused sticks to make sure no axis conflict can cause it.

Although that problem is not solved, now I know that if I want to fly the F4 with my winwing stick, I have to disable FFB in DCS. I can live with that.

 

The main problem is that with the FFBeast connected I can not trim properly without DCS FFB active.

Its  two separate problems here, but both have something to do with trimming.

 

How should the FFBeast be set up for force feedback? DCS FFB on or off? Using FFBeast software.

As mentioned, without DCS FFB active the trim does not move the physical stick. Is there an option in FFBeast software to make it move the physical stick together with the trim? Thats the only reason I need to activate DCS FFB.

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by darkman222

[propeler]

4 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

How should the FFBeast be set up for force feedback? DCS FFB on or off? Using FFBeast software.

 

https://ffbeast.github.io/docs/en/joystick_manual_quick_start.html#dcs here is what need to be setup in DCS. FFBeast Commander can mix DirectX effects and generated effects, but it do not affect trimming. Trimming comes now exclusively from DCS in DirectX FFB effects

[MAXsenna]

If so then the best solution to try is temporary disabling device in DCS. It is just a two clicks on device column. When WW is needed - enable it, when not - disable. No need disable/enable FFB, just device column in controls
 

Eh, no. Best solution is to get rid of the axis conflicts. One time solution.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

7 hours ago, darkman222 said:

No axis conflict 100 %. As the pitching stops when I disable DCS FFB. It must be the "saved" trim.

Well, DCS does not. I navet have your issues, and I've been using FFB for years. Something else's going on.

7 hours ago, darkman222 said:

Also I unplug unused sticks to make sure no axis conflict can cause it.

There won't be any axis conflicts if you correctly remove the axis that conflicts/are not in use. In all my years in DCS, you are the first to report this issue. 

[MAXsenna]

7 hours ago, propeler said:

Trimming comes now exclusively from DCS in DirectX FFB effects

There you go. I thought as much. 

[darkman222]

@propeler Thanks for the infos.

If someone else is reading this, here is how I found it works:

DCS FFB has to be enabled for trimming only. If I run DCS without FFBeast Commander it does its own FFB output ( which is way too strong). Strange thing is that the Force Feedback Tune seems not to do anything when changing the values. Value of 0 should disable it. But it does not.

 

 

But the good news is that FFBeast Commander overrides everything from DCS and uses only the trimmer function. So I have full control over every force, and the forces of DCS and FFBeast Commander are not mixed as I assumed incorrectly.

Still would be cool if FFBeast Commander realistic trimming would work without DCS FFB enabled, to get DCS FFB out of the equation at some point.

Edited October 9, 2024 by darkman222