Russian Pantsir-S1 -- best air defence money can buy

[GGTharos]

It wasn't my choice to ignore the fact that high-precision weapons as such happen to be subsonic, in very, very large part. But you're right, I'm only assuming this is significant, like you are assuming that it isn't ;)

 

As for a HARM having smaller RCS ... it has a smaller diameter body and a trajectory that tends to be different (And typically more difficult to deal with) then a bomb. What's the problem?

 

And what sort of detection range would you like there to be against it? We've already seen weapons tested for destruction of artillery shells etc, including lasers and gatling guns. It's a known that it CAN be done. It is a big mistake to think it is easy - speed plays a role, and a huge one at that.

 

Well, your opinion is quite the opposite to the official info.

 

Effective engagement of all target types (foremost high-precision weapons and aviation means of their delivery) within the whole range of their combat application environments and counteraction capabilities, taking into account the prospects of their development till 2020–2025

 

Any signs of supersonic target type exclusion here?

 

 

I guess then its nose section is stealthy too!

What detection range are you talking here about anyway? :D

[topol-m]

It seems that the missile's range is a bit optimistic, as is the speed you listed. I can get either speed or range but not both. Maybe the parameters in my simulation are not correct (I cannot simulate a bi-caliber body) which is why. I had to put a LOT of fuel into it to make it work though, which I guess makes sense since half of it is a booster :)

 

Well, we lack such detailed info - about fuel quantity, but definitely there should be a lot to travel such distance.

[nscode]

Newest HARM uses MMW radar ... so it might not be so easy. ;)

 

 

will use.. when (if) it gets released ;)

[topol-m]

It wasn't my choice to ignore the fact that high-precision weapons as such happen to be subsonic, in very, very large part. But you're right, I'm only assuming this is significant, like you are assuming that it isn't ;)

 

As for a HARM having smaller RCS ... it has a smaller diameter body and a trajectory that tends to be different (And typically more difficult to deal with) then a bomb. What's the problem?

 

And what sort of detection range would you like there to be against it? We've already seen weapons tested for destruction of artillery shells etc, including lasers and gatling guns. It's a known that it CAN be done. It is a big mistake to think it is easy - speed plays a role, and a huge one at that.

 

I don`t know the speed the HARM flies with at the late flight path stage but the Pantsir reaction time is 4-6 sec. (from target acquisition to firing first missile). So to destroy the missile it needs to detect it a little more than 4-6 sec. before impact.

[GGTharos]

No, it needs to detect 12 sec before impact, minimum :)

 

The system itself may react in 4-6 sec, but you have a missile launch delay, you have a minimum range zone, etc etc. This also assumes ideal conditions, so for example, no jamming, EMI, or other distractions.

 

The HARM will typically (but not always) dive in at the target at mach 2 - I suspect however that pantsir would be subject to non-ARM weapons more so than ARMs since it has a relatively short range. Russian ARMs operate on similar principles: Arrive quickly, thus giving the target little time to do anything.

 

Typical ARM employment tactics are also to spam the ARMs.

 

@nscode, Point - but the contract hasn't been canceled yet, so... -- Edit: It's in LRIP, I guess it remains to be seen how it will perform: http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/ATK_Awarded_AARGM_LRIP_Contract_By_US_Navy_999.html

 

Manufacturer's brochure: http://www.atk.com/downloads/108351_01_AARGM_ds.pdf

Edited June 2, 2009 by GGTharos

[nscode]

No, it needs to detect it more than 4-6 seconds before it gets to Rmin

 

edit: gg beat me to it :D

[topol-m]

Ok, the fact is that Pantsir can be used against bombs and supersonic missiles - targets similar to the HARM. This means it can detect them soon enough to shoot them down. The question is how much lower (if it is lower at all) is the RCS of the HARM compared to these similar targets, and is it enough to allow it to reach the SAM before it launches a counter missile. How can we find the answer of this crucial question? :megalol:

[GGTharos]

Nope, not similar to the HARM. It can be used against bombs and SUBSONIC tactical missiles (ie. cruise missiles, low supersonic like Maverick, maybe, etc).

 

It can also be used against supersonic anti-ship missiles, but the trajectory and environment is VERY different, as well as the fact that here they are aided by the ship's more powerful search radar to start with.

 

Pantsir might be able to shoot down a HARM with a volley of its own missiles if it is targetting the carrier and the operator or system realizes that a missile just separated from it. If it is targeting another aircraft, then you're likely out of luck as this system appears to be capable of narrow azimuth engagements.

 

In other words, I don't think it's a good idea to think of it as an 'anti-missile' system. The capability exists, but I think it's mostly a cruise missile/glide bomb type defense scenario - with the exception of ship-defense systems. But again, those get something extra to help ;)

[topol-m]

Well passive defence is still working :-)

[Maximus_G]

It wasn't my choice to ignore the fact that high-precision weapons as such happen to be subsonic, in very, very large part. But you're right, I'm only assuming this is significant, like you are assuming that it isn't ;)

I am assuming that Pantsir developers do not ignore such an important part of high-precision strike weapons inventory, present and future.

 

Max target speed is 1000 m/s.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/site.xp/049051049049124057056050.html

 

---

I suspect however that pantsir would be subject to non-ARM weapons more so than ARMs since it has a relatively short range.

Well, Pantsir is intended to provide protection for the larger SAM systems, so ARMs should be in the range of its typical targets.

Edited June 2, 2009 by Maximus_G

[GGTharos]

I'm assuming that like all designers, they've designed their weapon to perform quite well in its primary role: Shooting down CAS aircraft and helicopters.

Anything else is secondary, and with a cheap missile, probably less likely to be shot down. It has nothing to do with ignoring anything - it has everything to do with limitations imposed by your intended price tag.

 

Could you build a missile that can 'do it all'? You can - but nobody really does it ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

And then comes the issue of the numbers. I am sure 10 Pantser's can easily handle any single HARM threat. Ten F-16 with HARM's can probably easily take on a single Pantser.

Edited June 2, 2009 by =4c= Hajduk Veljko

[GGTharos]

That's a poor way to put it though - you don't deploy Pantsirs to handle HARMs. If they're handling HARMs, you have a problem - they aren't doing their job.

 

This is why ARMs work.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

You did not get my point. I was talking about the fact that most every system can be overwhelmed with numbers. Meaning that One Pantser does not have any chansce against 10 F-16's with HARM's. Also, one F-16 does not have a chance against 10 Pantser systems.

 

Reminder SAM = Stealth STOP!

[AlexHunter]

Edited June 3, 2009 by AlexHunter

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Looking at the pictures, it looks like Pantsir can work as an element of integrated system. Now that makes Pantsir something very powerful!

[GGTharos]

Just about every SAM can do that. ;)

[Pilotasso]

And then comes the issue of the numbers. I am sure 10 Pantser's can easily handle any single HARM threat. Ten F-16 with HARM's can probably easily take on a single Pantser.

 

 

You got to be kidding me...

 

10 F-16?!! = 10 dead pant-sir trucks.

 

 

Anyone swallows that 20km range for a missile barely any bigger than a stinger? meh

 

BUK m1 and S-400 not to metnion other asian medium range SAM's are the ones posing a real threat, not this marketed export toy. Its more targeted at CAS aircraft than anything else.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Pilotasso

[GGTharos]

You can do the 20km max range thing Pilotasso, but like everything, it isn't optimal. But you -can- :)

[EvilBivol-1]

In the images above, the placard describing the EO station lists "ARM HARM" as an example target, against which the EO system is stated to have a 13...15 km. tracking range.

[GGTharos]

That makes sense if the thing still has its motor going or is just coming off the aircraft. By comparison it would appear that radar detection of the same is on the order of 7km.

[Dusty Rhodes]

All this talk makes me wish we could get an IADS in DCS Black Shark and beyond like we had in JF-18.......another of Matt Wagners off spring.

[DarkWanderer]

That makes sense if the thing still has its motor going or is just coming off the aircraft. By comparison it would appear that radar detection of the same is on the order of 7km.

No proof.

Also, small detection radius means that the radar is detectable at small radius. At 40 km HARM will not burn the entire charge and will be detectable by EOS.

 

Anyone swallows that 20km range for a missile barely any bigger than a stinger? meh

Anyone who knows what do two-stage missiles differ from one-stage by.

Edited June 3, 2009 by DarkWanderer

[AlexHunter]

At the expense of anti radar rocket type HARM, this is not the most difficult goal for the type of Tunguska air defense systems, TOR-M, because the missile did not fly on low-profile mission, it is much harder to aim low CD (cruise missile). How to help - for anti-aircraft systems of the type (Tunguska, TOR-M), a cheap and common practice to target the Russian Armed Forces is a volley of rocket fire GRAD

 

rus

На счет противорадиолокационной ракеты типа HARM, эта не самая сложная цель для систем ПВО типа Тунгуска, ТОР-М, так как эта ракета не летит по профилю маловысотного полета, намного сложнее цель маловысотная КР (крылатая ракета). Как справка – для зенитных систем типа (Тунгуска, ТОР-М) одной из дешевой и распространенной тренировочной мишенью в ВС РФ является реактивный снаряд системы залпового огня ГРАД

[AlexHunter]

That makes sense if the thing still has its motor going or is just coming off the aircraft. By comparison it would appear that radar detection of the same is on the order of 7km.

 

7km - targets for 0.03m^2 and radar not X band - K (mm) and (СОЦ) S band AFAR