Best PC manufacturers for flight sim?

[EL CARIBE]

Hi DCS Pilots,

I'm very shortly going to be in the market for a new PC and am curious of what are the best PC manufacturers that others in the flight sim community have been happy with.  CyberPower? Corsair? Dell? HP? etc.

I built my own PC and have upgraded it a few times, but it's showing it's age and I need to start fresh with something new.  While I enjoyed building my own PC originally, at this point due to time constraints, I'd rather purchase a custom PC.  

Thanks in advance for your insights!

 

[SharpeXB]

Don’t do Dell or HP, you want a company that specializes in gaming PCs and will let you customize the machine to your needs. Personally I have an Origin (Corsair) PC which runs DCS extremely well. What sold me on them besides the Corsair connection is that they have 24/7 lifetime support. That’s rather invaluable to me. 

Edited October 18, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Tzigy]

Falcon NW. I am on my 3rd rig from them. 2nd to none. Spendy.

Edited October 19, 2024 by Tzigy
Typo

[EL CARIBE]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Don’t do Dell or HP, you want a company that specializes in gaming PCs and will let you customize the machine to your needs. Personally I have an Origin (Corsair) PC which runs DCS extremely well. What sold me on them besides the Corsair connection is that they have 24/7 lifetime support. That’s rather invaluable to me. 

 

Great insight! thank you!

1 hour ago, Tzigy said:

Falcon NW. I am on my 3rd rig from them 2nd to none. Spendy.

Great insight, thank you!

[kksnowbear]

My advice is to avoid all prebuilt machines.  If the vendor doesn't allow you to specify *all* the components used, it's a prebuilt.  This includes Dell and HP, as well as Corsair and others named above.  I may be wrong but I am unaware of any of them offering complete control over all components used - and even if they do, the build will almost certainly be outrageously expensive.  That's because they make money by controlling some or all the guts they offer.

Prebuilt machines are unnecessarily expensive for what you get, and you also have limited-to-zero choice for at least some of the components used.  Saying you can get a "4090" in a prebuilt is *not* specifying an exact component.  Some of the big names use some of the worst internal components in order to reduce costs and increase profit.  Zotac 4090s are notoriously bad designs, but IIRC some of the biggest names (Corsair?) use them in their builds.  Buyers who don't understand there are crucial differences in various GPUs think a 4090 is as good as any other.  That's just not true.  And that's just GPUs.  Prebuilts often do this same thing with motherboards, power supplies, and other internal components. 

But don't take my word for it:  Call them.  Ask if you can specify manufacturer and model of internal components like the GPU, motherboard, and power supply...and if so, what the impact on price will be.

Additionally, the build quality is often not what it should be - and I speak from decades of experience "working behind" some of these builds.  The assemblers are often focused on things like "key production metrics"; speed instead of quality.

A "custom" build from a competent builder, OTOH, will let you specify every component used (if you want), allowing you complete control over the quality of the hardware.  It's also possible you can save a considerable amount of money.  And a builder isn't likely to be bound by performance metrics the way big outfits are.

Custom is not the same as prebuilt, and the difference is perfectly clear.  Especially to someone who's experienced with doing this kind of work.  The online vendors' marketing often confuses the two terms, uses them interchangeably, applies them inaccurately etc - but my definition is based on the premise that "custom" means just that: Custom.  They will provide whatever you want and are willing to pay for.  That's a custom build.  Anything else is prebuilt; simple as that.

IMO you're better off to find a reputable builder who stands behind their work, has references that can be verified, and offers support that you actually need and is useful. A chatbot isn't necessarily helpful just because it appears to respond at 2 am. I'd suggest careful scrutiny of the exact nature of "24/7" support.

(Interestingly, I just checked the Origin website, and at least a quick look indicates their support is "Available from 6AM - 8PM PST".  This is 14 hours, not 24, and (as a builder myself) I can guarantee you that I've taken care of many clients *well* past 8PM.

There are other places on the site that state 24/7, but they appear to be dated, so it's possible that it's changed.   At best it's simply not clear, and the image above was taken directly from their home page https://www.originpc.com/  )

So again: What is being claimed/offered bears confirmation.

I would also suggest you review the thread below, where it is repeated several times: Avoid prebuilts.

To be clear, I am not saying a prebuilt machine is never an option - it may well be the only option, depending on circumstances.  What I am saying is it should only be the choice if there is absolutely no other option IMO, and even then you have to accept that it may not contain the best components or build quality, and still may cost hundreds (a thousand? 1500? 2000?) more than a comparable or better machine, with equal or better support.

On 10/18/2024 at 4:39 PM, EL CARIBE said:

Hi DCS Pilots,

I'm very shortly going to be in the market for a new PC and am curious of what are the best PC manufacturers that others in the flight sim community have been happy with.  CyberPower? Corsair? Dell? HP? etc.

I built my own PC and have upgraded it a few times, but it's showing it's age and I need to start fresh with something new.  While I enjoyed building my own PC originally, at this point due to time constraints, I'd rather purchase a custom PC.  

Thanks in advance for your insights!

 

If I may, it would be helpful if you could provide some detail on what you have now, what you might be interested generally (i.e. top-of-the-line, "midrange", etc) and (perhaps most important) what your budget and timeline is.

Edited October 20, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

Further on this topic:  I briefly checked the Falcon Northwest site to get an idea of their offerings. 

First of all, their support is 0900-1800 (PST).  That's only 9 hours a day; if you happen to live on the west coast and have a 9-5 job, you're pretty much looking at taking time off work to talk to their support.  It also indicates they're not available on 6 major holidays a year (Christmas, 4th July, Thanksgiving, Labor Day, Memorial Day, New Years Day).

Moreover, I briefly went through the process of configuring one of their mid-tower "Talon" systems with a 7800X3D, a 4090, 64G DDR5 6000 RAM, and a 2TB PCIe 5 NVMe drive.

The total cited was $5863, and that's before shipping and taxes.  Our tax rate is a fairly average 6%, and still puts you over $6200 not counting shipping.

I damn near passed out.  Wow.  That's over $1000 more expensive than the (already outrageous) Corsair system I discussed in the other thread linked above.

As I said previously: If you get even close to the option to configure these prebuilt machines with components that are not low-end junk, the price goes through the roof - and this was with a 4090 FE, arguably not the best 4090 out there (but it's all they offer...see?)  It also included only 2TB of fast storage, and an in-house branded 280mm AIO cooler.

To be brutally honest, for a price tag exceeding $6000, I'd expect more.  And I mean a LOT more.  That's just *way* too much money for what you're getting, in my opinion.

$6200 plus shipping...yikes.

Edited October 19, 2024 by kksnowbear

[BitMaster]

That's like way over 2K US$ above a very solid DIY PC

You could pay some techie a ticket and manage a 3-5 day stay for that much money but have all options on hardware...LoL

If I was w/o family and maybe 20 years younger I'd say, a ticket a Burger and a sleeping bag.

 

what a rip off

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, BitMaster said:

That's like way over 2K US$ above a very solid DIY PC

I figured the premium on my PC was about $500 or around 10%. Very worthwhile considering the support I get with it and that I didn’t have to build it. I’m not sure where you get $2K extra. Many people couldn’t or shouldn’t build one themselves so the extra cost is a given. Again it’s the support that’s the differentiator IMO. Otherwise most of these vendors are basically giving you the same parts and build.

1 hour ago, BitMaster said:

You could pay some techie a ticket and manage a 3-5 day stay for that much money but have all options on hardware...LoL

Yeah but what about tech support? You guys keep forgetting everyone doesn’t work in IT

Edited October 20, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

Without knowing both what you paid and when, there is zero way to corroborate the "premium" you paid...but I can just about guarantee it was way more than any $500.  Here's how I know this:

While no one can say what they charged you in margin without knowing what you paid and when, anyone can go over to the Origin website and see what they cost right now, today.  I've done that, and it's just as bad as the Corsair I mentioned in the other thread.   To 'configure' a machine with a 7800X3D/X670E board, a 4090, 64G DDR5, and 2TB of PCIe 5.0 storage...

...was over $4500, before tax.  Add taxes, even an average 6%, it will be almost $4800.  I can absolutely assure you they're making more than any $500.  Even if I count retail prices for the parts, I'm pretty sure it's possible to to build a better machine for $1500 less. 

But here's the thing: These guys don't pay retail for the parts (of course).  So they're actually making more still.  Once you consider the difference in component cost at retail vs what these guys pay, it's not hard at all to see they could easily make $2000 (and I'm counting labor to build the thing, too).

And you still don't get to specify what 4090 they're selling you.    It could be a crappy Zotac that's known to be one of the worst board designs (which I think might be what they sold you the first time)...it could be a 4090FE that, while it's better than the Zotac, there are much better 4090 models out there.  This is part of how these outfits make money to increase profit: Cutting costs on lower-quality parts.

Also, some of the vendors (Corsair/Origin) use 'in-house' brands for much of the build, and although it is true I don't have any privileged information, I can promise you that the vast majority of what you're paying for those components is pure profit.  If you're paying $200 retail for a Corsair branded case, what do you suppose their cost is on that unit?  Less than $100 for sure...maybe $50?  Businesses like this just don't exist to make any 10% margin

In Corsair's Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2023 Financial Results https://ir.corsair.com/news-releases/news-release-details/corsair-gaming-reports-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-2023 it states in part the following:

Michael G. Potter , Chief Financial Officer of Corsair, stated, “... our Gaming Components and Systems gross margin increasing 300 basis points to 21.3 percent from 18.3 percent in 2022."

On a $4800 system (as I just configured over at Origin), a 21.3% margin represents *over* $1000.  Profit.  That's after all costs in parts, labor, and yes you can bet they've allowed for the support cost over time, too.

Granted, there's a lot combined in that "gaming components and systems" - but again, they're not paying retail prices for parts they re-brand, not by a mile! In fact, I'd venture that one of the biggest reasons they're in the systems business to begin with is because they have their hooks in so many of the components (though not all), they probably make more than most other vendors, since their costs are likely lower for more of the parts.  And because they're a huge name, I'm gonna bet they're getting a pretty good deal on parts that they don't own - like motherboards, and GPUs that retail for $1800+

Plus, as I already indicated, the support isn't all you made it out to be:  Unless I'm missing something, it's not 24/7.  Phone support is available 6AM-8PM PST; that's only 14 hours a day.  If you're on the west cost, and have a job with typical 9-5 working hours, that's not a lot of hours outside when you have to be at work - vs evenings/nights when most people actually have time to be on the phone with support.  The rest of the day, it appears their 'support' is not live phone support.

I can't speak for other builders, but I can assure you I've provided support well outside that kind of hours (and yes, even on holidays, which some of the vendors don't even do at all).  I'm sorry but, as a builder, I just don't consider a chatbot comparable to my being personally available to a client.  Not even close.

So: Origin's cost appear to be just as bad as others.  Support: Still not 24/7 live support, and depending on where you live/work, amounts to a few hours a day.

That's now three online 'vendors' I've looked at (albeit briefly)...I can't help but feel as if I'm wasting time here, because I'm not seeing anything other than what I expected:  Overpriced builds that don't necessarily provide any material or service benefit that warrants the outrageous cost difference.

Not everyone needs to build their own PC, true enough.  But there are builders who can typically offer much better deals.  Now I'm going to quote what I said earlier:

On 10/18/2024 at 10:58 PM, kksnowbear said:

To be clear, I am not saying a prebuilt machine is never an option - it may well be the only option, depending on circumstances.  What I am saying is it should only be the choice if there is absolutely no other option IMO, and even then you have to accept that it may not contain the best components or build quality, and still may cost hundreds (a thousand? 1500? 2000?) more than a comparable or better machine, with equal or better support.

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[BitMaster]

kksnowbear is 99.9% right here.

 

The more you are into IT and service contracts with bigger companies you know what to expect and what not and sometimes you have to be a PITA for them to get them moving and fixing things. But, not all are alike. Dell Server Help ( if you paid for it first place ! )or MS365 Azure is pretty well as good as it can get, many others are far below that standard and reaction time.

A company like Corsair, cmon...you gotta be joking, I dont even take that serious. Thats a relabel company for Mice, Keyboards, RAM and AIO's..and yeah  Cases ! Not a true IT support business, neither are most of the others but none comes cheap. They usually dont have the expertise for the OS, Firmware, drivers etc... Something you can't easily hire with 3 employees and establish a new branch office.

[SharpeXB]

21 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

The more you are into IT and service contracts with bigger companies you know what to expect

You do realize most people don’t work in IT right? Something like 8% of the workforce in the US does. That means the other 92% likely doesn’t know enough to build or support their own PC. So buying a custom machine from a vendor is the best option for them.

21 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

kksnowbear is 99.9% right here.

kksnowbear is now on my ignore list, I don’t read his posts anymore

21 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

A company like Corsair, cmon...you gotta be joking, I dont even take that serious. Thats a relabel company for Mice, Keyboards, RAM and AIO's..and yeah  Cases

I’m referring to Origin (partner with Corsair). The support I’ve had from them has been invaluable. The PC itself is extremely nice.

Edited October 20, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So buying a custom machine from a vendor is the best option for them.

Not really true. There are often better options, even if someone can't or doesn't want to build a machine themselves.  It has zero to do with whether some works in IT.

[BitMaster]

I just wanted to express what kksnowbear just said ^ here.

There are usually better, more accessible and more personal options available. The less you know the more important personal trust and accessibility is needed, something none of the big and far away ones can offer, as much as they'd like to do.

In short words, support your local heroes.

[Nightdare]

54 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Not really true. There are often better options, even if someone can't or doesn't want to build a machine themselves.  It has zero to do with whether some works in IT.

 

I've built PC's for friends, I'm not in IT, I do it for no cost (except a coffee or 3), I have fun doing it

 

5 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

And, as I already indicated, the support isn't all you made it out to be:  Unless I'm missing something

 

The question is always: "What kind of support"

I'm sure there is no 'on site' help, and anything that can not be fixed over the phone will be needed to be send/picked up and you'll be without a system for a few days

[kksnowbear]

28 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

 

I've built PC's for friends, I'm not in IT, I do it for no cost (except a coffee or 3), I have fun doing it

 

 

The question is always: "What kind of support"

I'm sure there is no 'on site' help, and anything that can not be fixed over the phone will be needed to be send/picked up and you'll be without a system for a few days

Both points well taken.

While not everyone works in IT, that isn't required.  There are still plenty of people who know enough to build a PC.  Newegg, Amazon, MicroCenter all sell a ton of components to "non-professional" hobbyists.  So regardless of whether someone works in IT, they probably still know of/have access to someone who can help.  And save a crap ton of money by doing so.  Others (like myself) build and ship machines all over the US, and offer warranty, better support, and other benefits that even the big name vendors don't offer.  Often at a (much better) price than what I'm seeing at these "vendors" ($3700... $4500...$6200???).

The support that these places offer is great...if you're totally clueless.  The "flip-chart troubleshooters" they employ aren't really all that helpful, unless you truly know nothing about a computer.

Edited October 20, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

5 hours ago, BitMaster said:

kksnowbear is 99.9% right here.

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

kksnowbear is now on my ignore list, I don’t read his posts anymore

Sometimes people just can't stand it being shown that their opinions are at odds with fact.

My comments are intended to help those who genuinely want help, and don't mind acknowledging that they don't know this stuff.  I don't think it's good for the sim, the community, or the players when forum advice is inaccurate, especially if it's to the point of potentially damaging someone's machine - which has factually happened.  So I speak up.

You don't get to be an expert simply by spending exorbitant amounts of money on the latest-generation hardware, but these forums seem to draw a certain number of people who think precisely that.

Edited October 20, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Nightdare said:

I'm sure there is no 'on site' help, and anything that can not be fixed over the phone will be needed to be send/picked up and you'll be without a system for a few days

Most of the support I need doesn’t involve actual work on the machine. And I’m capable of a lot on my own but only with handholding. But support that’s only available 8-5 weekdays just isn’t helpful. I work those hours myself so for the times I need it, that’s just a no-go. There is a local shop I use for work that’s beyond my comfort level but I wouldn’t consider buying a whole PC from them due to their support hours. 24/7 lifetime support is a very big deal to me. Back when I was less savvy about this I had dealt with a PC company that did have a shipping and return service. That’s works too but for me now that’s kinda seems like a big pain. For some that might be the only option. 

Edited October 20, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

24/7 lifetime support is a very big deal to me.

Except that Origin doesn't actually offer 24/7 live tech support, as I've already demonstrated above.

Even *if* you got it back when you bought yours, it doesn't appear to be offered now.

LOL Not to mention that, for the money someone could save by *not* paying far more than the machine is actually worth, they can buy a lot of support (or even possibly a whole second machine, TBH).

And let's not forget: A good builder *can* include support at least as good as anything you're getting from these 'vendors', and *without* charging $2000 more than the machine is worth.

Edited October 20, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Nightdare]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And I’m capable of a lot on my own but only with handholding

 

I don't paint myself as 'the PC/Software-tech' (and let's face it, the biggest headaches are the software problems) but the past 2 decades I got by the problems with smarts and a smartphone

If you're like me, a 'home grown PC-Poker', no system problem is worth $1500 support money

 

~

 

 

I just went and specced a 'somewhat' comparable gaming rig in parts at a PC builder at a shop here in the Netherlands

to check what that would cost me a 7800x3d, 4090, 6400/64gb Fury Ram, Asus X870e Strix, 2tb Fury M2, 1600w, Seasonic, system:

(Yeah, EU, so prices in general are higher, but lets pretend $ and € are equal to even this out with currency conversion)

5400 including taxes, shipping + assembly by the shop (taxes equate to €930), discounting €100 rebates and free games

FNW: 5900 excl taxes/shipping

This system only differs from the Falcon North West in:

I'm missing a custom Cable Mod set, value, say,... 250? Specced a Gigabyte Waterforce 4090 instead of NV FE , and since there is no custom cooler or case, I chose Corsair H170i 420mm and Asus Hyperion case as counters (A butt ugly cooler and case, but the point was, they were expensive, just as custom stuff tends to allow)

 

So, arguably the better 4090 -at the least bragging rights for it being water cooled as well, bigger CPU cooler and the case allows expansion, so I had the ability to spec the 420 watercooler AND the Waterforce, not possible in the FNW and who knows what GPU's won't fit in the FNW case)

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2024 by Nightdare

[SharpeXB]

44 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

no system problem is worth $1500 support money

Yeah that seems like a lot. I figured the Origin PC at about $500 over the cost if it’s parts. And it was like $1k lower than the competitor I was looking at. Money isn’t as much a factor for me as time and aggravation so I consider that well spent. The topic here was “Best PC Manufacturer?” so the response that all manufacturers are overpriced and suck isn’t helpful

[Nightdare]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah that seems like a lot. I figured the Origin PC at about $500 over the cost if it’s parts. And it was like $1k lower than the competitor I was looking at. Money isn’t as much a factor for me as time and aggravation so I consider that well spent. The topic here was “Best PC Manufacturer?” so the response that all manufacturers are overpriced and suck isn’t helpful

Nothing aggravating about DIY, you're usually busy checking out/reconfiguring a prebuilt a few hours as well

Another option is to find a local shop with aftersales support

[kksnowbear]

31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah that seems like a lot. I figured the Origin PC at about $500 over the cost if it’s parts. And it was like $1k lower than the competitor I was looking at. Money isn’t as much a factor for me as time and aggravation so I consider that well spent. The topic here was “Best PC Manufacturer?” so the response that all manufacturers are overpriced and suck isn’t helpful

Except no one said that.  What they said was prebuilt machines are way overpriced for what you get.

And options were offered for someone who can't/doesn't want to build their own.  So helpful advice is factually being offered.  You just don't like the reality that there are way better ideas than throwing $2000 more than it should cost at these overpriced "vendors".

But since you want to be pedantic about the topic, the title "PC Manufacturers" pretty much excludes Origin, since they don't actually "manufacture" any of this stuff. As mentioned earlier, they simply rebrand stuff.

As above, the current offerings from Origin for a system as specified are way more than any $500 the cost of parts.  Closer to $2000.

Without proof of what you paid and when, it is impossible to say what you paid over the cost of parts - your "figuring" notwithstanding.  Still, it was more than $500, I would bet.

Edited October 21, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

13 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

Another option is to find a local shop with aftersales support

Of course, and that's been suggested several times.

Some people just can't accept that the way they did it just isn't even close to "best".

[SharpeXB]

23 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

Nothing aggravating about DIY

Uh consider your audience before making that assumption again the 92% of us who don’t work in IT… I would be in a world of trying to do that. No thanks. 

Edited October 21, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Nightdare]

@SharpeXB

Can you handle a screwdriver, are able to identify sockets and plugs and install programs?