Mig-21 used by Egypt - Looking for information

[Rudel_chw]

Hi all,

 

I'm interested on editing a few missions for the DCS MiG-21 set on the Sinai map and with Egyptian markings. However, the information I've managed to research about Egypt's use of the fishbed is rather limited. So, I'm asking the community for help, I' looking for this type of info:

 

Did Egypt employ a MiG-21 variant that can be simulated with the DCS version (MiG-21 bis) ?

If so, on which time period did they operate? 

Information on service squadrons and markings would also be useful. So far I have these skins by @Kerbo 416:

 

 

Thanks a lot for any help that you may bring  

 

Eduardo

Edited October 22, 2024 by Rudel_chw
added pic

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

I can go do some digging in my books, I got nothing to do this morning. Have some patience and I'll be back with SOME answers, hopefully.

[Volator]

11 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

Hi all,

 

I'm interested on editing a few missions for the DCS MiG-21 set on the Sinai map and with Egyptian markings. However, the information I've managed to research about Egypt's use of the fishbed is rather limited. So, I'm asking the community for help, I' looking for this type of info:

 

Did Egypt employ a MiG-21 variant that can be simulated with the DCS version (MiG-21 bis) ?

If so, on which time period did they operate? 

Information on service squadrons and markings would also be useful. So far I have these skins by @Kerbo 416:

 

 

Thanks a lot for any help that you may bring  

 

Eduardo

 

Egypt used the MiG-21MF, which was the predecessor version to the -bis. It is reasonably similar inside and outside the cockpit, although the -bis has a more powerful engine and a slightly better radar.

My source is Tom Cooper's book "Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in Combat" from the Osprey series. It says the MF was in EAF use from 1970 onwards. 

 

I hope this really badly, one-handedly taken photo in the interest of scientific research is acceptable as non-copyright infringement

[Volator]

These liveries are also available and quite good I'd say:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3335084/

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3332551/

 

 

[Rudel_chw]

23 minutes ago, Volator said:

My source is Tom Cooper's book "Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 units in Combat" from the Osprey series. It says the MF was in EAF use from 1970 onwards. 

thanks a lot for the help, you are very kind 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

In total, the Egyptian Air Force was a prolific operator of the MiG-21. The operated the type as early as 1962 with the MiG-21F-13.

The era you're probably interested in starts in '72 with their first acquisitions of the MiG-21M and MiG-21MF. These types are fairly comparable to the bis to the extent that it can stand in for them. They represent the most advanced version of the Fishbed they received. Maybe the F-7Bs they got in '82 might have better refinement, but I'd need to know more specifically about the examples acquired.

The 45th and 49th Squadrons flew the MiG-21MF with a possible third unit I'm trying to identify.

Operationally, it seems their employment by the Egyptians (and other Arab Air Forces during the various Arab-Israeli conflicts) wasn't optimum. Frequently, they were tasked to be fighter escorts for MiG-17s and MiG-19s. This is a frequently cited reason for their high losses, but realistically? The Soviets didn't do anywhere close to a good enough job training these air crews. The best Egyptian Fishbeds had it were when Soviet advisors were flying them with the term 'advisor' having extremely wide goal posts as to be expected for the Cold War.

My sourcing is Famous Russian Aircraft MiG-21 by Yefim Gordon and Keith Dexter. I do offer caution if you hunt down this book: It's a fantastic 'hard facts' resource. But, I find some of Yefim's conclusions to be suspect and he does mislabel a thing or two here and there.

So, if you're making an Egyptian-Israeli mission, expect MiG-21s to drop like flies more often than not. But, if you're not going down that predictable path, there's also the Egyptian-Libyan conflict. There weren't big furballs like we saw during the Yom Kippur War, but there were air-to-air engagements. And here? The MiG-21 gets heavily favored. In fact, we see the MiG-21 perform better than the MiG-23. It underpins why so many export customers chose to stay with and acquire updated MiG-21s as opposed to getting the newer, more expensive, MiG-23 as they saw it as a bridge too far for a performance increase they didn't really need.

Again, Volator's cited book by Tom Cooper? Pretty damn good and definitely worth hunting down.

Addendum:
Your opponent inventory should include Mirage F1s, F-4 Phantoms, MiG-23s without BVR weapons (I'm pretty sure the Libyans had the same RP-22 as the 21bis in their Floggers), and A-4E-Cs.

Your ally inventory should include MiG-15s (to stand in until we get the MiG-17) and the MiG-19. After '77? Egypt got F-4 Phantoms and stopped relying on the Soviets. Then, if you go into the 1980s, that ally pool opens way open with the start of the Bright Star exercises.

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/bright_star__82_eng.html

Check out those Vipers with the original tail feathers.

As for beyond the 80s? The EAF retired the MiG-21 from active units by 2010. However, they're kept in reserve in the same way the USAF keeps F-117s in storage; prepped for reactivation if needed. These particular aircraft serve as either geo-political tools (as they gave some to the Libyans) and, most obviously, for an emergency.

Edited October 22, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

The era you're probably interested in starts in '72 with their first acquisitions of the MiG-21M and MiG-21MF. These types are fairly comparable to the bis to the extent that it can stand in for them.

The 45th and 49th Squadrons flew the MiG-21MF with a possible third unit I'm trying to identify.

Hi,

Thanks a lot for all the info, it is really useful for my needs.

best regards,

 

Eduardo

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 10/22/2024 at 10:42 AM, Rudel_chw said:

Hi,

Thanks a lot for all the info, it is really useful for my needs.

best regards,

 

Eduardo

You're quite welcome.

I do recommend touching on the Libyan-Egyptian conflict or creating a modern one. You'll have PLENTY to do with an Egyptian-Israeli setting, for sure, so having those could add some interesting flavor to the experience. Obviously, you know what you're doing if you're set in the 60s and early 70s. But, it could be worth considering a Libyan airborne incursion or the idea of Egypt loaning out its mothballed Fishbeds to volunteers/mercenaries during a counter-insurgency operation.

[Rudel_chw]

7 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

I do recommend touching on the Libyan-Egyptian conflict or creating a modern one.

 

Actually I intend to edit a set of training missions for the -21, set on the Sinai Map, rather than doing a combat mission .... but I want to employ reasonably accurate dates, airbases, and weaponry, for immersion and realism. The missions are mostly for myself, as a way to get reacquainted with the -21, as I have not flown it on several years by now, but if they end up being fun I might share them at User Files   .. thanks again for all the details. 

[Kerbo 416]

On 10/24/2024 at 7:55 PM, Rudel_chw said:

 

Actually I intend to edit a set of training missions for the -21, set on the Sinai Map, rather than doing a combat mission .... but I want to employ reasonably accurate dates, airbases, and weaponry, for immersion and realism. The missions are mostly for myself, as a way to get reacquainted with the -21, as I have not flown it on several years by now, but if they end up being fun I might share them at User Files   .. thanks again for all the details. 

I highly recommend Tom Cooper's books for accurate information on the MiG-21s in Egyptian service, even just for training. in addition there are several pilot interviews online however they are sadly only in arabic, but hold a lot of information (they're about 2hrs each!).

As for your question, three of the liveries I have made for the MiG-21 were used on the MiG-21MF, which as others have stated, was the closest thing to the MiG-21BIS in Egyptian service. The liveries with red markings are post-1973 and from the 80s, the Early nile valley scheme was a picture taken during the war of attrition iirc? But the Nile valley scheme in general remained in use well into the 80s.

The fourth livery was based on a MiG-21PFS, which is a modified variant of a MiG-21PF, and was significantly different in both looks and capabilities then the MiG-21MF and MiG-21BIS, as it did not even feature an internal gun and relied on just two R-3S for armament, but was used quite extensively by Egyptian pilots even until 1973 and further.

[Kerbo 416]

On 10/22/2024 at 3:58 PM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

perationally, it seems their employment by the Egyptians (and other Arab Air Forces during the various Arab-Israeli conflicts) wasn't optimum. Frequently, they were tasked to be fighter escorts for MiG-17s and MiG-19s. This is a frequently cited reason for their high losses, but realistically? The Soviets didn't do anywhere close to a good enough job training these air crews. The best Egyptian Fishbeds had it were when Soviet advisors were flying them with the term 'advisor' having extremely wide goal posts as to be expected for the Cold War.

My sourcing is Famous Russian Aircraft MiG-21 by Yefim Gordon and Keith Dexter. I do offer caution if you hunt down this book: It's a fantastic 'hard facts' resource. But, I find some of Yefim's conclusions to be suspect and he does mislabel a thing or two here and there.

So, if you're making an Egyptian-Israeli mission, expect MiG-21s to drop like flies more often than not. But, if you're not going down that predictable path, there's also the Egyptian-Libyan conflict. There weren't big furballs like we saw during the Yom Kippur War, but there were air-to-air engagements. And here? The MiG-21 gets heavily favored. In fact, we see the MiG-21 perform better than the MiG-23. It underpins why so many export customers chose to stay with and acquire updated MiG-21s as opposed to getting the newer, more expensive, MiG-23 as they saw it as a bridge too far for a performance increase they didn't really need.

hm, not really. There's nothing to indicate that the training of egyptian crews after 1967 was on any worse a level then that of the IDF or other airforces. (other then propaganda). Tom Cooper and pilots during that period stress the intense trainings they went through and they did manage to achieve good results against the IDF (again, if you're looking past "we shot a hundred arab fighters and any losses we incurred were "technical""). And while sure, they suffered slightly higher losses then they inflicted, this can be attributed almost entirely to the discrpency in tech. even by 1973, most of the Egyptian MiG-21s were either PFs with only 2 R-3S as armament (fuel was often highly valued so taking the gun pod wasn't a common occurence), or older F-13s, which had a gun, but were still limited in terms of performance and endurance (they were preferred by Egyptian aces though), and the MFs didn't make up a sizeable portion of the EAF. On the otherhand the IDF had state of the art missiles like the AIM-9D on very powerful platforms such as the F-4 and the Mirage.

[Rudel_chw]

9 minutes ago, Kerbo 416 said:

The liveries with red markings are post-1973 and from the 80s

 

Thank you so much for all the info, the date range is particularly useful ... the livery I liked the most is this one:

 

 

Once I have the first mission in a working state, I will link it here so you can try it if you want, as I'd love to get warnings if I've got anything wrong 

Cheers,

 

Eduardo