Ammo belt question

[Reflected]

Calling Luftwaffe history buffs:

I'm looking at the different ammo belt options in the rearm menu. Which one would be most realistic for a frontline squadron in 1944? Would they specifically rearm with "anti bomber" for intercept missions? But those are not pre-planned, they just scramble...so did they go up with "combat mix" or did they use "anti bomber" all the time since that was their main role?

What would be the historically accurate  ammo belt to be used in my campaigns? (same goes for the 190)

Thanks in advance!

Edited October 29, 2024 by Reflected

[killerfliege]

Hey Reflected, 

Love your stuff and you asking such a question makes me excited about what that might be for

I have done some digging. The 109 is more easily addressed. 

According to the attached extract from - I believe - the official German gunnery manual of the time, it is mentioned that for the Mk-108 only 2 rounds were used:
- Minengeschoss (HE round that exploded upon contact with aircraft skin)

- Brandgranate (HE-I, which should explode upon contact with liquids).  

Apparently, a usual ammo mix contained 1 Mine + 1  Brandgranate (50/50). 

Now, let's have a look at the lua file (see attachments): 

null- Defined are: [1] Mine, [2] Mine + tracer (Leuchtspur), [3] Brandgranate
- All rounds are defined as "mit Zerleger" (with self-destruction), which was a feature fuses could have that would detonate the round after a certain amount of time. It is hard to find concrete data on this but I remember that the flight time for the 108 was set to around 7 seconds before self-destruction. This is why missed rounds leave smoke puffs in the sky.

The only thing I cannot figure out from the lua is the "mixes" definition. It reads {{2,2}} and apparently that describes 4 different ammo belts: CM, HE, Tracerless, Ground attack. 

I think we can reduce it to HE and CM as you wrote and since CM is the only one of the two that has tracer rounds, I assume that CM represents the 50/50 Mine/Brandgranate belt. 
It probably is defined as such: Mine, Brandgranate, Mine, Brandgranate, Mine Tracer, Brandgranate, etc. 

Another indication backing this up is the fact that the rounds in the CM belt have different impact effects. Some leave smoke puffs and others seem to just penetrate. The Brandgranate was designed to penetrate and only explode upon contact with liquids. The in-game behaviour of the CM-rounds seems to match that.

I assume that HE Anti bomber is the following: Mine, Mine, etc. 

 

Conclusion: Both belts are realistic. The manual states that Brandgranate was prone to shortages, so I assume Mine-only belts were carried. The sole fact that only CM has tracers for the 30 mm round makes it more feasible and probably more realistic. There is no reason why the HE anti bomber belt should not have tracers, unless my above assumption is wrong and it is Brandgranate only (the only round that does not have a tracer option in the lua.). In this case CM becomes even more realistic. Bottom line: Whatever it may be, CM you cannot go wrong with. 

 

This video gives more details on the effect of the two rounds: 

 

[killerfliege]

Now, the 190s: 
Again, three rounds are defined: [1] Brandgrante tracer, [2] Panzersprenggranate, [3] Minengeschoss

The belt selections are the same as for the 109 but in case of the 190, both CM and HE Anti bomber carry tracer rounds. Since the only tracer round for the 151s according to the lua is the Brandgranate, I again think that the CM belt represents the ammo belt definitions in the German manual better. As you can see, for the MG151 all rounds are used in different combinations. I feel like CM is probably 3 Mine, 1 BG, 1 PSG and HE Anti Bomber is 1 Mine + 1 BG. 

Again, I guess both CM and HE are equally realistic. In practice, there is not much difference anyway (I find at least). They seem to have about the same effect. 

Maybe it makes sense to use both belts on your campaign assets. I am certain that different units and pilots preferred different ammo mixes. The manual seems to suggest that mixing his ammo belts was in part the pilot's own decision (or at least could be influenced by them or their superiors). He can choose - I quote loosely - "the amount of tracer rounds as per his liking and experience, though some rounds don't have tracer options." 
null

Hope these considerations help.

 

Horrido :)

[Night Owl]

Hey @Reflected
here you have an excerpt of the German weapons handbook (Dienstvorschrift). Dated June 1944

nullFor a 190 in the West, you would thus have:

For the 20 mm:

- 1x Minengeschoss (HE)

- 1x Incendiary tracer (HEI-T)

- 1x Armour piercing incendiary (API)

 

For the MG131:

- 1x HEI-T

- 1x AP-T or API-T

 

For the MK 108:

- 1x HE

- 1x HEI-T

 

Edited October 29, 2024 by Night Owl

[Night Owl]

So neither of the belts we have in DCS is accurate for the time period. CM is probably more historical than HE

[Reflected]

Excellent, thank you so much for the valuable insights! Much appreciated. I guess I'll leave it on 'CM' for the Horrido and Jagdflieger campaigns

[Skewgear]

On 10/29/2024 at 7:20 PM, Night Owl said:

Hey @Reflected
here you have an excerpt of the German weapons handbook (Dienstvorschrift). Dated June 1944

nullFor a 190 in the West, you would thus have:

For the 20 mm:

- 1x Minengeschoss (HE)

- 1x Incendiary tracer (HEI-T)

- 1x Armour piercing incendiary (API)

 

For the MG131:

- 1x HEI-T

- 1x AP-T or API-T

 

For the MK 108:

- 1x HE

- 1x HEI-T

 

 

@NineLine could this ammo belt layout be included in the Fw190A? While they're tweaking the canopy per other posts

[Doughguy]

Yea same with the dora while shes getting her altimeter fixed