HARM does not see tracking SA-11 TELAR in PB mode

[Blackfyre]

In PB mode HARM does see and hit SA11 launcher if it does not lock anybody. If SA11 has locked somebody then HARM can't see it and miss. HARM can see and engage SA11 launchers in TOO or SP modes regardless of their state (they should be emitting of course).
I'm not sure, but I think it is a bug.

HARM-does-not-tracking-SA11-TELAR.trk

[Hobel]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Blackfyre:

In PB mode HARM does see and hit SA11 launcher if it does not lock anybody. If SA11 has locked somebody then HARM can't see it and miss. HARM can see and engage SA11 launchers in TOO or SP modes regardless of their state (they should be emitting of course).
I'm not sure, but I think it is a bug.

HARM-does-not-tracking-SA11-TELAR.trk 967.11 kB · 0 Download

 the SA11 also has a kind of search mode and the AGM88 tracks this.

The Buk can do both, search and track.

[Blackfyre]

12 hours ago, Hobel said:

 the SA11 also has a kind of search mode and the AGM88 tracks this.

The Buk can do both, search and track.

Yes, but why does HARM tracks only search mode? Why not both or track mode only?
HARM does track Patriot, SA-15, SA-19, Roland in both modes with a single code. What makes the Buk special. 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Blackfyre

[Hobel]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Blackfyre:

Yes, but why does HARM tracks only search mode? Why not both or track mode only?
HARM does track Patriot, SA-15, SA-19, Roland in both modes with a single code. What makes the Buk special. 

 

Well Sa-19, Sa-15, Roland and so on have 2 antennas, one for search and one for track.

 

and DCS these units can't separate their emitter and it all stays on at the same time and if the AGM88 tracks the search radar it stays on even if Sa-19/15 and the like are tracking something.

The SA11 has only one radar which switches from search to track (I don't know exactly how this works or how many modes the radar has, we are assuming DCS Logic for the time being) and the initial source is therefore omitted for the AGM88. But irl the AGM88 has other modes and if it does not find the initial source it would switch to the next best one, which in this case would be the tracking of the SA11.

[Blackfyre]

7 hours ago, Hobel said:

Well Sa-19, Sa-15, Roland and so on have 2 antennas, one for search and one for track.

 

and DCS these units can't separate their emitter and it all stays on at the same time and if the AGM88 tracks the search radar it stays on even if Sa-19/15 and the like are tracking something.

The SA11 has only one radar which switches from search to track (I don't know exactly how this works or how many modes the radar has, we are assuming DCS Logic for the time being) and the initial source is therefore omitted for the AGM88. But irl the AGM88 has other modes and if it does not find the initial source it would switch to the next best one, which in this case would be the tracking of the SA11.

I could understand if HARM was tracking the initial source and some significant change in it would break the lock (but again it should be the case for other SAMs too I guess). But they fail to recognize SA-11 even if Buk has been tracking all the time. And in TOO mode they don't care about Buk's mode. If it is emitting it will be hit.

[Hobel]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Blackfyre:

I could understand if HARM was tracking the initial source and some significant change in it would break the lock (but again it should be the case for other SAMs too I guess). But they fail to recognize SA-11 even if Buk has been tracking all the time. And in TOO mode they don't care about Buk's mode. If it is emitting it will be hit.

The argument is that the SA11 has only one antenna, which is not the case with most other Sam models.

can you provide a track for, because in PB mode, the AGM-88 hits the Buk when Tracking

Edited December 2, 2024 by Hobel

[Blackfyre]

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

The argument is that the SA11 has only one antenna, which is not the case with most other Sam models.

 

I don't get it. Patriot too has only one antenna, also the HAWK's CWAR which I guess is more similar to the Buk system than Patriot. If anything, HARM shouldn't track different antennas with one code. And it doesn't make sense to codify only search mode for the primarily tracking radar of the SA-11.

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

can you provide a track for, because in PB mode, the AGM-88 hits the Buk when Tracking

What do you mean? I have provided a track when HARM in PB mode miss tracking Buk. It happens 100% of the time.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Blackfyre

[Hobel]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Blackfyre:

What do you mean? I have provided a track when HARM in PB mode miss tracking Buk. It happens 100% of the time.

sorry my mistake. anyway it "works" i have taken control of your track

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Blackfyre:

I don't get it. Patriot too has only one antenna, also the HAWK's CWAR which I guess is more similar to the Buk system than Patriot. If anything, HARM shouldn't track different antennas with one code. And it doesn't make sense to codify only search mode for the primarily tracking radar of the SA-11.

But there is a code for each of the Hawk radars(And CWAR searches permanently), Only the tracking radar can be hit when it  actively illuminate.

However, I have done a few tests.

and for me the AGM-88 ONLY hits when the SA-11 is on, i.e. observed, and that is always the case when an aircraft is within a ~30nm radius, if something is outside  then the SA-11 switches off completely.

you don't hit in your track because your AGM-88 is outside the tracking cone, from the moment the SA-11 fires a missile it seems to switch from "observe" (wide cone) to active tracking and from that moment on the AGM-88 is no longer in the FOV of the SA11 and misses. this should not be the case and I have already observed this with the Shrike45.

The AGM-88 should actually still see the SA11 (side lobes and the very short distance), but this does not only apply to the SA11, the logic runs through the whole DCS, for example with the SA-2 Tracking radar it is the same.

example picture when the shrike is outside the tracking cone it miss, same seems to be the case with the SA11 and AGM88.
This has already been discussed here.

 

I have done a few more tests here where I fly low in your mission so that the AGM88 stays in the cone and then it hits.

AGM-88 track los miss .trkAGM-88.trk

 

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Hobel

[Blackfyre]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

you don't hit in your track because your AGM-88 is outside the tracking cone, from the moment the SA-11 fires a missile it seems to switch from "observe" (wide cone) to active tracking and from that moment on the AGM-88 is no longer in the FOV of the SA11 and misses. this should not be the case and I have already observed this with the Shrike45.

The AGM-88 should actually still see the SA11 (side lobes and the very short distance), but this does not only apply to the SA11, the logic runs through the whole DCS, for example with the SA-2 Tracking radar it is the same.

That makes sense, though I'm not sure as this FOV thing is "correct as is". I rarely go for SA-2 tracking radar, but SA-10 and Patriot definitely can be killed by a HARM flying almost perpendicular to the ground from above. And it seems reasonable since PB (or similar modes in F-16) are primary modes for HARMs as far as I know.
Thank you for the explanation and the link - I'll read it later.

[Hobel]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Blackfyre:

That makes sense, though I'm not sure as this FOV thing is "correct as is". I rarely go for SA-2 tracking radar, but SA-10 and Patriot definitely can be killed by a HARM flying almost perpendicular to the ground from above. And it seems reasonable since PB (or similar modes in F-16) are primary modes for HARMs as far as I know.
Thank you for the explanation and the link - I'll read it later.

It's been a while but the SA10 in DCS has a huge tracking cone to acquire multiple targets at once and I think it's similar with the Patriot.

Therefore the results with the AGM88 are also better.