issue with dcs unit reported George can detect targets through obstructions when he should not be able to

[Floyd1212]

We were having a discussion in another thread about how George is a little OP with his super-human ability to detect targets through trees, buildings, and hills, and it was suggested that I create a new thread as a separate bug report demonstrating the problem; so here it is...

These screenshots were captured in the same MP mission on Syria, which was a Liberation campaign running on a dedicated server.  I attempted to view my track file that was generated for this flight, but it was corrupt, so I have none to share with this report.  (This was likely because my flight ended with my DCS crashing after viewing the F10 map, but alas, that is for a different bug report.)

 

Example 1 - George detecting targets through trees

This is a common occurrence for me on a daily basis.

In this screenshot I am approaching the target area at 100 knots and relatively low, and George sees some targets in the vicinity of where I ask him to look.  After selecting one of the targets from the list he presents me, he locks onto this target through many layers of trees.  The vehicle in question is beyond that tree-line, out in the open, not nestled in the trees themselves.  Not only does he know the target is there, he gets a solid IAT track and as lasing the target through the trees.  If I were to tell him to engage this target, he would do so, and would have a 99% probability of kill based on where he is lasing the target relative to the "outline" of the vehicle.

 

Example 2 - George detecting targets through buildings

In this example, I am in a stable hover, and I have told George to search in an area for targets.  After selecting a target from his list, he slews the TADS over to this guy and finally settles in on this spot where a static enemy is presumably on that hill beyond the buildings and trees.  In this case, he does not get an IAT lock, and I'm not sure he would even engage this target if I told him to. If he did, I suspect the missile would impact the building he is lasing.  However, the point is that George knew the target was there when he should not, considering it is obscured by buildings.

 

Example 3 - George detecting targets through a hill

In this example, I am in a stable hover, and asked George to look for targets in an area we have been attacking some AA units.  At first I was confused with what George had found since I cannot see anything where he finally settled his TADS, and then it occurred to me there might be a hill between me and the target.

In the first frame, my altitude is 530 ft AGL when he sees the target through the hill.  In the second frame I start to come straight up and a buddy has a missile impact beyond the hill and you can see a cloud of dust.  In the 3rd frame I am at 870 ft AGL and the top half of the unit he had spotted is now visible and he has established an IAT lock.

Edit: It was mentioned in the other thread that George has some sort of "memory" as to where units may have been spotted previously?  I had been flying in this area previously and we took out some of the AA units, then I retreated and setup in a hover outside of 5km.  Could the unit George spotted through the hill have been "seen" previous to this when I was flying closer?

 

If anyone else has video or tracks of similar instances of George detecting targets that should be obscured from his view, please add them here.  I will try to put together a simple mission with targets in a test range and see if I can reproduce these results, and share the track file here.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Floyd1212

[admiki]

I had same cases with trees.

Strange thing is that if you veer just a bit, George would lose lock. It looks like it's a problem with hit box of those trees, not what we can actually see.

As for memory, yeah, it's possible to remember general area, but to be able to pinpoint it? Sounds like a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[Floyd1212]

Here is a simple track of George being able to spot and "track" a target through a hill.  He says "tracking target", though he cannot establish an IAT track through the hill.

To create this, I took the Liberation .miz where I encountered this the other night and deleted pretty much everything else in the mission, including all the scripts and triggers, and placed an Apache at the right spot to recreate the situation in isolation.  Sure enough, he can detect the units without having valid LOS.

 

George LOS through a hill.trk

[Raptor9]

This is not an issue with George being able to see through terrain. It is an issue of the unit itself having some sort of unseen dimensions beyond what is visible. In the image below, I took control of the track and attempted to IAT on the S-60 gun. The IAT gates are registering additional unit dimensions that are not visible to the player. What those are, I don't know. But this is not an issue with George, but that specific unit, the S-60.

When I attempted to do the same with the Ural-375 nearby, as soon as the truck was no longer visible, precisely when the bracing over the back of the truck bed went below the ridgeline, George could no longer see the target. So again, this is not an issue of George being able to see through terrain, but of some DCS units that apparently need some sort of correction to their dimensions within the simulation.

I'll report this. Thanks.

EDIT: As for those screenshots above, we need to know what scenery objects may need corrections, and where on the map those are located. But this is looking like an issue of unit or scenery object dimensions (hit box, collision mesh, whatever you want to call it), not the George AI logic.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Raptor9

[Floyd1212]

Here is a track of George spotting a target through a building.  In this case, there are (5) BTR-82A on the incline beyond that industrial complex.  He can see only one of the five units there, but he probably shouldn't be able to spot any of them.

I built this mission from scratch, placing the player and enemy units in the approximate position that they were from the original Liberation mission when I saw it happen.  I also included the .miz so the devs might be able to figure out which building type that is.

 

George LOS through a building.trk George LOS through buildings.miz

[Floyd1212]

Out of curiosity, I went back and removed the trees to see if there was some part of the BTR visible sticking out beyond the building, but being hidden by the tree foliage, but that doesn't look to be the case.

This might be a case of the occlusion geometry (or whatever it is called) of that building type being a simple box, and doesn't include the A/C units and other decorations on the roof that we can't see through.

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

This is not an issue with George being able to see through terrain. It is an issue of the unit itself having some sort of unseen dimensions beyond what is visible. In the image below, I took control of the track and attempted to IAT on the S-60 gun. The IAT gates are registering additional unit dimensions that are not visible to the player. What those are, I don't know. But this is not an issue with George, but that specific unit, the S-60.

I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure I agree with the assessment.  I replaced the S-60 with an Strela, and also added a T-90 and BTR in the same area, and now he is seeing those units as well.  Maybe an issue with the hit boxes on all of them?  (There is a 4th unit there with the other 3 that he doesn't see, but that might just be a matter of placement.)

Here is the .miz if you want to play around with it.

 

George LOS through a hill.miz

[Raptor9]

Thank you very much for the additional data, @Floyd1212. I'll look into this further today.

It might be some issues on Syria specifically, but too soon to tell.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Raptor9

[admiki]

Seems to be the case on Caucasus too.

No track, due to scripts being used.

[Floyd1212]

George LOS Caucasus.miz

Well, my last post ended up not displaying any of my text, just the images, but you get the idea.  10 vehicles in a row on Caucasus and he can see 8 of them when they are BTR-82A and all 10 of them when they are T-72B.  The .miz is included for the devs to play with.

[Floyd1212]

I'm excited to see the new George AI features getting ready to roll out.

Any update on the issue with George detecting targets that he shouldn't be able to detect?  Like behind hills, trees, buildings, etc.