Mission 11 - not making sense...

[cesarferrolho]

So, i shoot one of the bandits with a Phoenix, one remains that fires and i have to evade...

Paco AI just flies along the bandit and doesn't even try to shoot him !!

I can understand the heavy scripting for the training part, but this is a mission with real dynamic fighting. What's going on?

Edited December 11, 2024 by cesarferrolho

[Reflected]

OK, I'm going to repeat myself. Do NOT use Tacview, because it will NOT make sense. Can you just play along with the story please?

It's not a dynamic mission. It's a storyline that Paco and I came up with. It already has about 3-4000 voice over files, and it would be triple that if I let the AI do whatever they want and set up a trigger and voices for each combination of outcomes.

If you want a dynamic fight, you'll get it with the dynamic campaign (or in a simple instant mission), but I assure you it will cost you the storyline, all the voice overs and a lot more.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Reflected

[Reflected]

Let's entertain the thought for a minute though:

Say I let the AI loose , anyone can attack anyone. Completely dynamic. If Paco chooses to attack your bandit you'd come complain with a TacView file. Also, how do I know what the AI will decide and which 'sort' voice it needs to play? Sort left to right? Or right to left? If Paco splashes both bandits, then Slick calling 'splash wouldn't be valid anymore either. Or let's say your bandit attacks Paco. How do I ensure Paco wins? Because if he's splashed I need a whole new set of voice overs for the rest of the mission and the rest of the campaign because one of the heroes just died. If both AIs attack Paco, what if the player loses sight of everyone? You're introducing variables that would increase the need for new triggers and voice lines exponentially, not to mention the mission would be extremely fragile and any change in AI behavior would be able to break it.

This way, however, it's been rock solid since the day it was released and everyone who played along with the story enjoyed it tremendously. You'd be surprised what kinds of tricks and sorcery we mission makers need to use in the background to make sure the campaign is 100% bulletproof, and resistant to AI changes and bugs and/or ignorance from the players.

[cesarferrolho]

2 hours ago, Reflected said:

Let's entertain the thought for a minute though:

Say I let the AI loose , anyone can attack anyone. Completely dynamic. If Paco chooses to attack your bandit you'd come complain with a TacView file. Also, how do I know what the AI will decide and which 'sort' voice it needs to play? Sort left to right? Or right to left? If Paco splashes both bandits, then Slick calling 'splash wouldn't be valid anymore either. Or let's say your bandit attacks Paco. How do I ensure Paco wins? Because if he's splashed I need a whole new set of voice overs for the rest of the mission and the rest of the campaign because one of the heroes just died. If both AIs attack Paco, what if the player loses sight of everyone? You're introducing variables that would increase the need for new triggers and voice lines exponentially, not to mention the mission would be extremely fragile and any change in AI behavior would be able to break it.

This way, however, it's been rock solid since the day it was released and everyone who played along with the story enjoyed it tremendously. You'd be surprised what kinds of tricks and sorcery we mission makers need to use in the background to make sure the campaign is 100% bulletproof, and resistant to AI changes and bugs and/or ignorance from the players.

Yeah, than that does it for me then. The enemies don't even try to dodge the missiles we launch, it seems...

" If Paco chooses to attack your bandit you'd come complain" Yeah, i'd come complain the flight lead fulfilled briefed mission parameters !!? Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to leave your wingman defenseless while just watching him being attacked? What kind of storytelling is that ??!!

It's basically just an interactive movie, not a game/sim, your campaign.

You take DCS and use it as a game engine completly bypassing the actual game of DCS with tricks and sorcery.

It's supposed to be a simulator, not an interactive movie... IMO

Very dissapointed.

The voices don't have to mean a tottaly scripted experience. I can understand it in the RAG part though... But since you mention that, there are big pieces of briefing with no voice at all, like the intro to this mission 11. At least, i didn't hear a word, and i can hear it in the "game" part.

Total break of realism, immersion. Bypassing of systems like Jester AI...

I guess it was big mistake by me, getting this

[Jayhawk1971]

Reflected is always very transparent about his campaigns, how they work and how they are structured.  He releases tons of videos and tutorials on how to play them, and what to expect - and not to expect. Well in advance of release, I might add. On top of that, a quick search on YouTube provides you with a list of mission playthroughs made by several customers. Enough material for you to make an informed purchasing decision, IMO.

You clearly didn't do your due diligence. It's not for you, you prefer a different style of gameplay. Which is fine.

However:

There is no need to be disrespectful about it. Especially considering the sheer amount of work and time Reflected, BD, Groundpounder and all those other creators put into these campaigns. Not only to create, but also maintain and update them (like constantly adding new features, despite having no obligation to do so).

[Reflected]

8 hours ago, cesarferrolho said:

Yeah, than that does it for me then. The enemies don't even try to dodge the missiles we launch, it seems...

" If Paco chooses to attack your bandit you'd come complain" Yeah, i'd come complain the flight lead fulfilled briefed mission parameters !!? Don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to leave your wingman defenseless while just watching him being attacked? What kind of storytelling is that ??!!

It's basically just an interactive movie, not a game/sim, your campaign.

You take DCS and use it as a game engine completly bypassing the actual game of DCS with tricks and sorcery.

It's supposed to be a simulator, not an interactive movie... IMO

Very dissapointed.

'Interactive movie' is actually a very good expression. I've been pretty upfront about this too. As I said it's my most heavily scripted campaign, brought to you by several real life Naval Aviators so that we can experience what it's like. Thousands before you have played along and said they had the best sim experience ever. But again, we have different tastes. The other end of the scale would be 'MiG Killers' for example, where it's totally randomized, any combination of outcomes is possible. But: it's only possible in a very sterile/ isolated scenario, that is NOT part of a bigger storyline. It's training.

8 hours ago, cesarferrolho said:

The voices don't have to mean a tottaly scripted experience. I can understand it in the RAG part though... But since you mention that, there are big pieces of briefing with no voice at all, like the intro to this mission 11. At least, i didn't hear a word, and i can hear it in the "game" part.

Total break of realism, immersion. Bypassing of systems like Jester AI...

I guess it was big mistake by me, getting this

Well, if you don't read the briefings that tell you "make sure external sounds" are enabled in your settings, you won't hear any sounds  

[cesarferrolho]

21 hours ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Reflected is always very transparent about his campaigns, how they work and how they are structured.  He releases tons of videos and tutorials on how to play them, and what to expect - and not to expect. Well in advance of release, I might add. On top of that, a quick search on YouTube provides you with a list of mission playthroughs made by several customers. Enough material for you to make an informed purchasing decision, IMO.

You clearly didn't do your due diligence. It's not for you, you prefer a different style of gameplay. Which is fine.

However:

There is no need to be disrespectful about it. Especially considering the sheer amount of work and time Reflected, BD, Groundpounder and all those other creators put into these campaigns. Not only to create, but also maintain and update them (like constantly adding new features, despite having no obligation to do so).

First of all, i was not disrespectful about it. Criticizing a product you buy isn't being disrespectful. You can also search for the campaign feedback topic, where i criticize but thank the work behind it, even though i didn't like the product. It's rather odd you say such a thing...

Yes, i didn't look at all the playthroughs on youtube and i also said it was a mistake of mine getting the campaign.

But, are you suggesting people should look at hours of playthroughs (revealing the whole story) before buying??!! I didn't buy the campaign through Youtube, there is a DCS store page for that, where for instance, there isn't a text stressing it's not aimed at beginners even though there is a Youtube video just about that. But the difficulty isn't really the issue, it's the excessive scripting, even during the actual fights making everything too artificial 

Edited December 12, 2024 by cesarferrolho

[Jayhawk1971]

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb cesarferrolho:

Criticizing a product you buy isn't being disrespectful

It's not what you say, but how you say it.

Re-read what you have written, and tell me this is normal conversational "tone". You were being rather condescending in your wording, and come off as confrontational and, frankly, entitled. Which personally I find highly unfair towards someone who invests a lot of time and effort (waaaay beyond "customer support") to provide this niche community with high-quality content. And who does his best to be transparent and open about what he is offering!

Maybe it's a language barrier thing, I don't know. All I can tell you is this is how your post came across to me.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb cesarferrolho:

 are you suggesting people should look at hours of playthroughs (revealing the whole story) before buying??!! I didn't buy the campaign through Youtube, there is a DCS store page for that, where for instance, there isn't a text stressing it's not aimed at beginners even though there is a Youtube video just about that. But the difficulty isn't really the issue, it's the excessive scripting, even during the actual fights making everything too artificial 

Please don't be hyperbolic: No one suggests that you should "look at hours of playthroughs". Just a quick browsing of the gameplay of one single video would be sufficient to figure out what to expect.

You could also have read the forum here. You could have posted and asked someone before buying. It was never a secret that this campaign is heavily scripted. A minimal amount of research would have provided you with that information. Judging by the feedback given here and on Discord, pretty much everyone else seems to have had a clear understanding of what to expect. 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb cesarferrolho:

But the difficulty isn't really the issue, it's the excessive scripting, even during the actual fights making everything too artificial 

That is the nature of the beast. The AI (both friendly and enemy) can not effectively simulate a BVR timeline, at least not enough to drive home the lessons you learn during the RAG part. 

How about you try to approach the campaign again with an open mind, and accept S&A for what it is: a training tool, to teach you the finer (and correct) points of flying and fighting in the Tomcat? Straight from "Paco" Chierici, a real-world former Tomcat pilot.

My interpretation is that the second part of the campaign serves as an example of a "real world" application of the lessons you learn during the RAG and is, therefore, also part of "training". This part also has to be scripted, because, as I understand it, the DCS AI in its current state is incapable of performing in a way to make these real-world tactics you learn in the RAG work. If you pay a little attention you'll notice that the missions in the "conflict" part mirror the lessons from the RAG.

The campaign also somewhat follows Paco's novel "Lions of the Sky". Which features the protagonists going through the RAG and applying what they have learned later in a "real world" conflict.

I mean, since you already own the campaign, you might as well give it another try without any preconceived notions. Just an idea.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Jayhawk1971

[cesarferrolho]

44 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

 

It's not what you say, but how you say it.

Re-read what you have written, and tell me this is normal conversational "tone". You were being rather condescending in your wording, and come off as confrontational and, frankly, entitled. Which personally I find highly unfair towards someone who invests a lot of time and effort (waaaay beyond "customer support") to provide this niche community with high-quality content. And who does his best to be transparent and open about what he is offering!

Maybe it's a language barrier thing, I don't know. All I can tell you is this is how your post came across to me.

Please don't be hyperbolic: No one suggests that you should "look at hours of playthroughs". Just a quick browsing of the gameplay of one single video would be sufficient to figure out what to expect.

You could also have read the forum here. You could have posted and asked someone before buying. It was never a secret that this campaign is heavily scripted. A minimal amount of research would have provided you with that information. Judging by the feedback given here and on Discord, pretty much everyone else seems to have had a clear understanding of what to expect. 

That is the nature of the beast. The AI (both friendly and enemy) can not effectively simulate a BVR timeline, at least not enough to drive home the lessons you learn during the RAG part. 

How about you try to approach the campaign again with an open mind, and accept S&A for what it is: a training tool, to teach you the finer (and correct) points of flying and fighting in the Tomcat? Straight from "Paco" Chierici, a real-world former Tomcat pilot.

My interpretation is that the second part of the campaign serves as an example of a "real world" application of the lessons you learn during the RAG and is, therefore, also part of "training". This part also has to be scripted, because, as I understand it, the DCS AI in its current state is incapable of performing in a way to make these real-world tactics you learn in the RAG work. If you pay a little attention you'll notice that the missions in the "conflict" part mirror the lessons from the RAG.

The campaign also somewhat follows Paco's novel "Lions of the Sky". Which features the protagonists going through the RAG and applying what they have learned later in a "real world" conflict.

I mean, since you already own the campaign, you might as well give it another try without any preconceived notions. Just an idea.

JayHawk, i already spent hours and hours playing the RAG, trying to figure out triggers, why the AI is doing this instead of that... etc...  i'm ok with my grades. I don't feel any motivation to play the other missions in that format.

If you can't deal with my criticisms and understand them, while disagreeing, then i don't have anything else i can say. I already explained the problems. If you don't agree, fine.

[cesarferrolho]

1 hour ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Please don't be hyperbolic: No one suggests that you should "look at hours of playthroughs". Just a quick browsing of the gameplay of one single video would be sufficient to figure out what to expect.

I disagree. A quick browsing might not tell me much, i'd have to know what to look for exactly. And each RAG mission is, at least, an hour, except for the Carrier Qualifing ones.