Anyone here that used both the Crystal and 8KX in DCS?

[sirrah]

Sorry if asked and discussed before (it probably has, but my/the forum search isn't great)

Does anyone here have experience with both the "new" Pimax Crystal and the "old" Pimax 8KX?

I read that the Crystal has quite a lot of pro's:

• Less image distortion
• Sharper image (better clarity)
• Better comfort
• Inside-out tracking (no base stations needed)

But... That immense fov of the 8KX... I can imagine that to be "jaw dropping" in DCS.

Of course, people here that stepped over to the Crystal, did so for a reason, but still: What's you're overall verdict? (am I overestimating the awesomeness of the 8KX's wide fov?)

 

I currently own a Reverb G1 and in terms of image quality/resolution, that thing is already excellent imho (at least to my standards  ). Actually, the only improvement that I wish I could make, is having a wider fov. Would it be reasonable to try and find a 2nd hand 8KX now (I see one at the moment for €600,-), or do all the cons weight so heavy that it would be silly to choose the 8KX over the Crystal?

[LucShep]

Can't help with the comparison to the Crystal, as I haven't tried one yet.

I did try the Pimax 8KX, and the wider FOV does impress right away, somewhat fixing that downside of the HP Reverb G1 and G2 (which feel like looking through "divers goggles" or "binoculars" if compared) but the image is not as crisp, it was more demanding on resources, and comfort was appaling in comparison (HP Reverb G1 and G2 still better).
Reading instruments is not as easy or imediate on the Pimax 8KX. It's not that it's bad (it isn't) and I guess one could get used to it, but I personally couldn't get over it.
I think it's a matter of what you're looking for and prefer.

The "sweet spot", as is the FOV, on both the HP Reverb G1 and G2 may be a bit small, but it's still so good, as are the colors, that I find even newest headsets barely improving in these aspects while being quite a bit more demanding on resources (and far more expensive). Same for the comfort, and the sound.

I haven't tested many but, from all HMDs I tried with DCS - HP Reverb G1 (v1 and v2), HP Reverb G2 (v1 and v2), Oculus/Meta Rift-S, Quest 2, Quest 3, Pico 4, and Pimax 8KX - both the HP Reverb G1 and G2 proven to be the best and by far (for me).
Also, and perhaps controversial, but I even found the 2nd version of the HP Reverb G1 (aka Reverb G1 Pro) as good, if not better, than both the Reverb G2 v1 and v2, with only the sound and comfort being better for me on the G2 v2. Could be from the units themselves and not representative of all in the market, but... there is that.

There's the issue of cables, on both HP Reverb models, that may get broken with time and harsh use. But there are sellers on EBAY selling replacements at lower prices than before (as are the G1 and G2 headsets themselves, plenty mint ones available in second hand market), as VR users have abandoned them due to the WMR software breaking issues with latest Win11 24H2 update (now also affecting Win10 with latest updates). There are also mods to atempt fixes on cables, but may be complicated for most users.

I think the downside of Windows updates breaking WMR, and HP no longer producing them, are really the only main problems on the HP Reverb G1 and G2.
Otherwise, they'd still dominate as the unbeatable balanced choice of VR headsets for people who are into simulators today, for DCS inclusively. Great image, comfort, sound, and inside-out tracking, all provided right out of the box, without outrageous prices or brutal hardware requirements.
 

Edited March 5 by LucShep

[sirrah]

29 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Can't help with the comparison to the Crystal, as I haven't tried one yet.
I did try the Pimax 8KX, and while the wider FOV does impress right away, somewhat fixing that downside of the HP Reverb G1 and G2 (which feel like looking through "divers goggles" or "binoculars" if compared) but the image is not as crisp, and comfort was appaling in comparison (HP Reverb G1 and G2 still better in both those aspects).
Reading instruments is not as easy or imediate on the Pimax 8KX. It's not that it's bad (it isn't) and I guess one could get used to it, but I personally couldn't get over it.
I think it's a matter of what you're looking for and prefer.

The "sweet spot", as is the FOV, on both the HP Reverb G1 and G2 may be a bit small, but it's still so good, as are the colors, that I find even newest headsets barely improving in these aspects while being quite a bit more demanding on resources (and far more expensive). Same for the comfort, and the sound.

I haven't tested many but, from all HMDs I tried - HP Reverb G1 (v1 and v2), HP Reverb G2 (v1 and v2), Oculus Rift-S, Quest 2, Quest 3, Pico 4, and Pimax 8KX - both the HP Reverb G1 and G2 proven to be the best and by far (for me), also very affordable now with many mint units available on the second-hand market.

Also, and perhaps controversial, but I even found the 2nd version of the HP Reverb G1 (aka Reverb G1 Pro) as good, if not better, than the HP Reverb G2 v1 and v2, with only the sound and comfort being better for me on the G2 v2. Could be from the units themselves and not representative of all in the market, but... there is that.

There's the issue of cables, on both HP Reverb models, that may get broken with time and harsh use. But there are sellers on EBAY selling them at lower prices than before, as many users have abandoned them due to the WMR software breaking issues with latest Win11 24H2 update (now also affecting Win10 with latest updates). There are also mods to atempt fixes on cables, but that may be too complicated for most users.

I think the downside of Windows updates breaking WMR, and HP no longer producing them, are the main problems on the HP Reverb G1 and G2.
Otherwise, they'd still rule as the best balanced choice of VR headsets for most people today, for DCS inclusively. Great image, comfort, sound, and inside-out tracking, all provided right out of the box, without outrageous prices or brutal hardware requirements.

 

Thanks for the extended feedback LucShep

I really like my HP Reverb, but investing in a new pc and then not being able to update Windows because of WMR support (or lack thereof), is a bit of a no go for me.

Additionally, last week my Reverb cable broke, so perhaps this is the time to make a switch...

I'm going to do some more research/reading on this. The large fov on the 8KX is really tempting for me and I suppose if I cranck up the pd setting, image quality is probably more than good enough for me, but it's mainly the lack of wear comfort and the need for base stations that is holding me back.

[LucShep]

12 hours ago, sirrah said:

Thanks for the extended feedback LucShep

I really like my HP Reverb, but investing in a new pc and then not being able to update Windows because of WMR support (or lack thereof), is a bit of a no go for me.

Additionally, last week my Reverb cable broke, so perhaps this is the time to make a switch...

I'm going to do some more research/reading on this. The large fov on the 8KX is really tempting for me and I suppose if I cranck up the pd setting, image quality is probably more than good enough for me, but it's mainly the lack of wear comfort and the need for base stations that is holding me back.

I think the problem you'll realize is finding a "better" headset in all parameters combined (image, comfort, sound, I/O tracking, HW resources consumption, and price) is hard.

Honestly, I think the closest you'll get (in my experience) as a direct replacement for the HP Reverb G1 or G2, is the Oculus/Meta Quest 3, or maybe the Quest Pro. 
But you'll need a Wifi 6E router (as it works best wireless), a better headstrap (look at BoboVR and KIWI-design ones for Quest 3) and, of course, a Facebook account...
 

Edited March 5 by LucShep

[sirrah]

26 minutes ago, LucShep said:

I think the problem you'll realize is finding a "better" headset in all parameters combined (image, comfort, sound, I/O tracking, HW resources consumption, and price) is hard.

Honestly, I think the closest I think you'll get (in my experience) has a direct replacement for the Reverb G1 or G2, is the Oculus/Meta Quest 3, or maybe the Quest Pro. 
But you'll need a Wifi 6 or 6E router (as it works best wireless), a better headstrap (look at BoboVR and KIWI-design ones for Quest 3) and, of course, a Facebook account...
 

Yeah, that last one "Facebook" account, pretty much kills it for me. I want nothing to do with that stuff 

You're probably right on not being able to find better bang for buck than the Reverb... How great would it be if someone found a way to replace/reinstate WMR

[LucShep]

21 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Yeah, that last one "Facebook" account, pretty much kills it for me. I want nothing to do with that stuff 

You're probably right on not being able to find better bang for buck than the Reverb... How great would it be if someone found a way to replace/reinstate WMR

You and me both (...I'm alergic to social media ).

I'm still hopeful that someone will find a way to bypass WMR on latest Windows, with a free open source alternative. Though I suspect it'll only happen soon on Linux. 
Not only the HP Reverb G1/G2 but also the old Samsung Odyssey+ are still popular WMR headsets that a lot of people keep using.

 

Edited March 4 by LucShep

[WipeUout]

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

I currently own a Reverb G1 and in terms of image quality/resolution, that thing is already excellent imho (at least to my standards  ). Actually, the only improvement that I wish I could make, is having a wider fov. Would it be reasonable to try and find a 2nd hand 8KX now (I see one at the moment for €600,-), or do all the cons weight so heavy that it would be silly to choose the 8KX over the Crystal?

If only there could be a place where you can test all those HMDs and see what you prefer.  At the end, it is very dependant on your personal expectation and compromising limits.

I run an 8KX and love it.  The HMD is still not being used at its full potential, even with a 4090, I can't max out settings and FOV.  I use the standard FOV which is 140 degrees horizontal and that is quite enough but the HMD can go up to 170 degrees.  To get the best possible image, I would need to supersample to 180%.  With the present hardware it is not posible for the whole image, only the central view within quadviews.

I did tiried several other HMDs, we have a division at work that uses VR for development and they have a ton of HMDs but not the Crystal yet.  I did tried the G2, Quest 3 and Varjo Aero but would not switch amy of these for my 8KX.  For me, the FOV is a critical feature that provides greatest immersion, but that's me.

Going for a 2nd hand 8KX might be tricky.  I would suggest also investing in a fiber optic cable if it doesn not have it.  And last but not least, you will need to upgrade your rig to drive an 8KX or crystal (16.59 million pixels).

[freehand]

I have owned many headsets & still go back to the G1 I'm on my third love it light comfy sharp takes nothing to drive plus chip as chips.

 

[LucShep]

12 hours ago, LucShep said:

I think the problem you'll realize is finding a "better" headset in all parameters combined (image, comfort, sound, I/O tracking, HW resources consumption, and price) is hard.

Honestly, I think the closest you'll get (in my experience) as a direct replacement for the HP Reverb G1 or G2, is the Oculus/Meta Quest 3, or maybe the Quest Pro. 
But you'll need a Wifi 6E router (as it works best wireless), a better headstrap (look at BoboVR and KIWI-design ones for Quest 3) and, of course, a Facebook account...
 

I completely forgot, there's the Sony PSVR2, though it only works through OpenXR via SteamVR.

While not "universally praised" like the Reverb G1/G2 has been, there are users who are happy with it.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=psvr2+pcvr
 

 

Edited March 5 by LucShep
added links

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, WipeUout said:

If only there could be a place where you can test all those HMDs and see what you prefer.  At the end, it is very dependant on your personal expectation and compromising limits.

I run an 8KX and love it.  The HMD is still not being used at its full potential, even with a 4090, I can't max out settings and FOV.  I use the standard FOV which is 140 degrees horizontal and that is quite enough but the HMD can go up to 170 degrees.  To get the best possible image, I would need to supersample to 180%.  With the present hardware it is not posible for the whole image, only the central view within quadviews.

I did tiried several other HMDs, we have a division at work that uses VR for development and they have a ton of HMDs but not the Crystal yet.  I did tried the G2, Quest 3 and Varjo Aero but would not switch amy of these for my 8KX.  For me, the FOV is a critical feature that provides greatest immersion, but that's me.

Going for a 2nd hand 8KX might be tricky.  I would suggest also investing in a fiber optic cable if it doesn not have it.  And last but not least, you will need to upgrade your rig to drive an 8KX or crystal (16.59 million pixels).

Interesting insight. I didn't even know one could manually reduce fov in the 8KX. I can imagine 140° already being an incredible improvement over the default 100° binocular-view. 

Why do you think getting a 2nd hand 8KX is tricky? Do you mean "tricky" in sense of availability? (there's indeed not many advertised)

 

(Oh and yes, I'm well aware that I'd need a new pc )

[WipeUout]

3 hours ago, sirrah said:

Why do you think getting a 2nd hand 8KX is tricky? Do you mean "tricky" in sense of availability? (there's indeed not many advertised)

Yes, the 8KX was introduced in 2021 and availability is very scarse.  My bet is that not many were produced because it was extremely expensive.  I bought mine early 2023 from the Pimax outlet store as a "refurbished" headset.  The 8KX is becoming old though, you could end up with an HMD that is four years old.  If you can find one that has not been used much, then it might be worth it.  Also consider that you need controllers (for other VR games) and base stations for positioning adding another 300-400$.  If you already have base stations, then it makes sense, else I would go for the crystal light.