Radar-TWS

[Kaktus]

Greetings and salutations, 

 

opening a new thread, if old news or topic pls admin redirect me, 

 

anyway need assistance with my radario situation, i am trying to test some phoenix configuration on the plane, just put a generic su30 4x flight formation against my cv, and i'm the rescuer right? ) 

 

anyway, they are flying high at 30.000 feet, me at 30.000 also, i set them at 50 nautical miles away and they are flying ANYTHING but close formation-so my tws would pick them up right? 

 

NOPE. a  BIG FAT NOPE, i tried flying lower, i tried to use that declutter probe thing, i tried being in RIO seat and using TWS AUTO, then TWS MAN, and put 20 azimut degrees for condensed radar beam, and 2 bars etc, nothing, if i put RWS mode though-i see those 4 birds as precisely as a raptor probably would.

 

if i put my f14 to be driven by AI Ace, he picks them up at 50 nm and launches on them.. so

 

what . gives . 

 

i can't believe TWS is so dumb it can't pick 4 flight formation and planes are like 300 meters apart

[wwWolfcom]

That seems odd.

Check WCS - XMIT(jester should have already done this)

Check if su30 were 'hidden on mfd' in mission editor

The probe thing is called, MLC filter

It flter out mainlob clutter or ±100knot relative velocity targets.

If WCS XMIT and MLC is off, Radar should detect everything except Zero Doppler targets(which clousre velocity is ±133knot)

Also, TWS only supports 2bar 40' or 4bar 20'

Your azimuth volume setting knob will change between 2 settings.

 

Make sure your elevation(consider bar settings relevant to your azimuth) scan volume contains target altitude.

[Kaktus]

Will try, definitely weird as all my Rio jester can do is see one target and o checked the formation of su30 were such they are even more far apart up to one km, insane for tws not to pick four different contacts will put the save track here so you can check it I guess… will try a couple of times more just in case

[Ivandrov]

Yeah, something is up with what you are doing. If you see them in RWS than you should also be able to see them in TWS.

[Kaktus]

for the lols i changed the su30 into tu142 armed with kh35 so even bigger targets right.. nothing, if they fly in a formation -they change it to this defualt one regardless of what i set up, but facing them i see one target, the rest fly behind each other, don't know what the formation is called, but still as i said, they are very far apart and are big targets, don't understand, will give you my track, check it, if i'm doing something specially wrong pls let me know..

 

if you can run the file it will show you, only at ridicolous close range of 11 miles can my radar differentiate 4 huge ass targets like tupolev .. shameful display ..lol

ACL tomcat fail.trk

 

seriously, maybe i'm too old for this, or too dumb, maybe the other option, i feel like i don't understand simple english-turn this, turn that, and then it should work but it doesn't.. dear god

 

anyway i have failed my carrier and my career, those tupolevs easily launched their cargo as i watched my radar warm up or whatever it did.. i guess i'm off to flying rubber dog<profanity> from hong kong.. and just as Cougar lost it and i got my chance at the Top Gun slot ..lol

 

[Ivandrov]

5 hours ago, Kaktus said:

for the lols i changed the su30 into tu142 armed with kh35 so even bigger targets right.. nothing, if they fly in a formation -they change it to this defualt one regardless of what i set up, but facing them i see one target, the rest fly behind each other, don't know what the formation is called, but still as i said, they are very far apart and are big targets, don't understand, will give you my track, check it, if i'm doing something specially wrong pls let me know..

 

if you can run the file it will show you, only at ridicolous close range of 11 miles can my radar differentiate 4 huge ass targets like tupolev .. shameful display ..lol

ACL tomcat fail.trk 2.85 MB · 1 download

 

seriously, maybe i'm too old for this, or too dumb, maybe the other option, i feel like i don't understand simple english-turn this, turn that, and then it should work but it doesn't.. dear god

 

anyway i have failed my carrier and my career, those tupolevs easily launched their cargo as i watched my radar warm up or whatever it did.. i guess i'm off to flying rubber dog<profanity> from hong kong.. and just as Cougar lost it and i got my chance at the Top Gun slot ..lol

 

Doesn't look like you provided the right track, it's named ACL fail and it looks like some attempt at a landing with ACLS.

I can infer a bit from your description that it sounds like you are trying to find 4 targets that are all in column right behind the other while you are co-altitude and nose-to-nose with them?

It's a bit like if I asked you to count how many vehicles are stopped in a lane on a road while your head is level with the front vehicle's grille and you are looking at the cars where they are all in line with each other. It's pretty difficult and a radar would suffer from the same problem of reflected energy all being reflected by the front contact.

If you put them the same distance apart in a line abreast formation more of them show up at much longer distance. But even then for the TU-142's they have to me more than 2 miles apart at least at more than 50 miles or the TWS starts determining that two of them are actually one giant track.

Edited Sunday at 11:14 PM by Ivandrov

[Kaktus]

Oh the shame I was pretty sure correct track will re do when back home but yeah definitely something wrong o did same mission but with f15 and i tws the targets easy at 30-50 miles away, so not issue of spacing, interesting what the solution is, can u remake the mission faulty easy to redo and test, put four enemy at 30 k going at your path and you same altitude at 50 nm and tell me what happens the procedure u use, the order of buttons you press and let’s for simplicity sake use only pilot and jester so no jumping in back seat.

 

just make sure enemy is anti ship mission with cv as target, who knows maybe this is important somehow for them to have cloack shield against f14 radar

[Ivandrov]

49 minutes ago, Kaktus said:

Oh the shame I was pretty sure correct track will re do when back home but yeah definitely something wrong o did same mission but with f15 and i tws the targets easy at 30-50 miles away, so not issue of spacing, interesting what the solution is, can u remake the mission faulty easy to redo and test, put four enemy at 30 k going at your path and you same altitude at 50 nm and tell me what happens the procedure u use, the order of buttons you press and let’s for simplicity sake use only pilot and jester so no jumping in back seat.

 

just make sure enemy is anti ship mission with cv as target, who knows maybe this is important somehow for them to have cloack shield against f14 radar

Do not try to compare the performance of the two radars between the F-14 and the F-15E. The 15E has a more advanced radar.

 

It's about 2 miles of separation required for the TU-142 so that the TWS keeps the two aircraft separated.

 

There is no error on your part other than you are expecting too much from a 60's era radar.

 

As far as what to do in a situation where you are dealing with a conga line, you would just reposition to the side, no different buttons need to be pressed or anything like that. It's just a matter of repositioning the aircraft.

Edited Monday at 08:02 AM by Ivandrov

[Hog_driver]

Is it really that bad? (as described by Kaktus)

Now I have to mention that I haven't flown the Tomcat a lot, I mostly wanted to test the radar/missiles, so I might have misunderstood something, but:

here's a simple mission, 4 Tu-95s and a Tomcat flying at 30,000 ft, radar in TWS Auto, range set to 400 and it looks like that:

 

As far as smaller aircraft are concerned, I replaced the Bears with Su-30 and 2 of 4 were detected at ca. 80 NM.

Edited Monday at 10:32 AM by Hog_driver

[Bealdor]

1 hour ago, Hog_driver said:

Is it really that bad?

Now I have to mention that I haven't flown the Tomcat a lot, I mostly wanted to test the radar/missiles, so I might have misunderstood something, but:

Please define "bad".

I see multiple tracks being successfully created on 4 targets that are basically flying behind each other, at 160nm+ distance on a radar that was designed in the 1960's.

How is that bad?

Edited Monday at 09:54 AM by Bealdor

[Hog_driver]

I guess the situation described by Kaktus may be regarded as "bad", but in my (limited) experience, the radar in the Tomcat doesn't perform that "badly".

[Bealdor]

Ahh, then I misunderstood you. Sorry

[Hog_driver]

No problem.

[Kaktus]

Here i put the correct track now, .. woow the envy i have for you guys, at 200 plus miles you can see different targets.. haha, i can dream, i can't see it at 15 miles.. doing something horribly wrong definitely. maybe i need to repair f14 in launcher? is it possible? after update i had issues, with authorization and now ok i guess but maybe? 

 

TWS complete fail.trk

 

and also p.s.: the f15c was the C in flaming cliffs so really far from the SE strike eagle version of the radar, something is off..

definitely love the fact one of you guys have no such issues, it gives me hope i can establish proper radar control cuz this is abysmal performance right now, this is 1930 tech right now

what i have))

 

pls check the track, you will see TWS picks up other targets at horrible 12 miles away, when literally with my eyeballs i can differentiate them at 20 miles ..

 

[Hog_driver]

7 minutes ago, Kaktus said:

definitely love the fact one of you guys have no such issues, it gives me hope i can establish proper radar control

 

Yeah, and I don't even fly the Tomcat but Phantom, whose radar is... not so good

Maybe it's a maintenance problem? Do a slow repair

[Ivandrov]

4 hours ago, Kaktus said:

Here i put the correct track now, .. woow the envy i have for you guys, at 200 plus miles you can see different targets.. haha, i can dream, i can't see it at 15 miles.. doing something horribly wrong definitely. maybe i need to repair f14 in launcher? is it possible? after update i had issues, with authorization and now ok i guess but maybe? 

 

TWS complete fail.trk 2.89 MB · 0 downloads

 

and also p.s.: the f15c was the C in flaming cliffs so really far from the SE strike eagle version of the radar, something is off..

definitely love the fact one of you guys have no such issues, it gives me hope i can establish proper radar control cuz this is abysmal performance right now, this is 1930 tech right now

what i have))

 

pls check the track, you will see TWS picks up other targets at horrible 12 miles away, when literally with my eyeballs i can differentiate them at 20 miles ..

 

You are still attempting to compare two different radars to inform you about the TWS performance of the Tomcat's radar. That is not a valid comparison whatsoever. They are two different radars. The -63 in the 15C is not only the next decade over, but it has received far more in the way of updates to its capability since then.

Anyway, there's no bug here nor are you doing something wrong with the buttons. they are just too close together and all in a column where you can't see past the one in front.

If I take control of your track using the buttons you pressed, it's the same for me where I can only see the one bomber, but all I do is just move to the side and I can get a 2nd contact to show up in TWS at long range.

If I do my own mission with the TU-142 spread out further and in a line abreast as I said, they all show up at long range without any special button pressing.

Edited Monday at 05:07 PM by Ivandrov

[Kaktus]

So basically Russians could have easily overwhelmed the enemy cap by flying this formation as radar simply can’t pick up the planes flying behind and they were far from close formation meaning if they actually fly close formation you can’t pick them up? 
 

also if I watch my track my tws doesn’t pick them apart at all only at 13 miles can it pick them apart even though o flew at an angle and saw them separated by my own mark eyeball… something is off, o think you would get better result in a freakin f4 lol

[Ivandrov]

29 minutes ago, Kaktus said:

So basically Russians could have easily overwhelmed the enemy cap by flying this formation as radar simply can’t pick up the planes flying behind and they were far from close formation meaning if they actually fly close formation you can’t pick them up? 
 

also if I watch my track my tws doesn’t pick them apart at all only at 13 miles can it pick them apart even though o flew at an angle and saw them separated by my own mark eyeball… something is off, o think you would get better result in a freakin f4 lol

The radar picks them up fine, you'll be able to see them on the DDD in the backseat. The TWS processing is not doing a good job of seperating them out into different tracks on the TID which is what you are looking at on the front seat.

 

If you want to see them all, you would just use a different radar mode, or you have a good RIO who knows how to work the radar to give you the information you need.

Edited Monday at 05:44 PM by Ivandrov

[Kaktus]

I’m just saying if you are single playing a campaign you can’t do much it seems, all you can do is stt and fire away even though those bombers with radar cross section of Empire State Building and separated by one mile on between you can’t tws them meaning you can’t atop them on time for them to launch deadly cargo… 

 

I refuse to believe tomcats couldn’t actually tws them in real life at 150 miles

[Ivandrov]

Example of how a good RIO enhances your awareness.

Here is me controlling your track. I'm attempting to offset and the TID still shows one contact.

However, if I look at my DDD and hold the IFF button to change the DDD to show range. I can see what is really going on.

I can see that there are in fact 4 separate bricks.

4 minutes ago, Kaktus said:

I’m just saying if you are single playing a campaign you can’t do much it seems, all you can do is stt and fire away even though those bombers with radar cross section of Empire State Building and separated by one mile on between you can’t tws them meaning you can’t atop them on time for them to launch deadly cargo… 

 

I refuse to believe tomcats couldn’t actually tws them in real life at 150 miles

Well, you can believe what you want. But, you'll need to show some documentation to Heatblur if you want to argue that the TWS performance should be changed.

[Ivandrov]

And I suppose for the record, the formation you are attempting to defend against would not at all be a formation that these bombers would be using. They have their own radars that would be blocked for the same exact reason.

[Kaktus]

3 minutes ago, Ivandrov said:

And I suppose for the record, the formation you are attempting to defend against would not at all be a formation that these bombers would be using. They have their own radars that would be blocked for the same exact reason.

yes but if those bombers get basically a shield, where only one bomber dies from phoenix its "worth it", as cruicial time is spent for nothing but targeting one bomber.. 

 

remember those phoenix missiles are not hypersonic 10 mach missiles so, and intercept ranges realistically from carrier group should be around 200 nm, so if you waste a good 50-90 nm on travel of one phoenix the bombers get through and can launch their kitchens or whatever soviets would throw at the CV group.. sinks, kitchens, dishware, sunburn )))

[Ivandrov]

Only one bomber would launch because the radars they need to get the target coordinates for the KH-35's would be blocked by the bomber in front of them.

Like I said, it would be a pretty dumb formation, the front bomber would have to fire and then take forever to get out of the way of the next one. Those KH-35's would be picked out of the sky 4 or 6 at a time by the carrier group. Instead what they should be doing which is firing all 24 in the entire formation at once. 

Edited Monday at 08:14 PM by Ivandrov

[RustBelt]

1 hour ago, Kaktus said:

yes but if those bombers get basically a shield, where only one bomber dies from phoenix its "worth it", as cruicial time is spent for nothing but targeting one bomber.. 

 

remember those phoenix missiles are not hypersonic 10 mach missiles so, and intercept ranges realistically from carrier group should be around 200 nm, so if you waste a good 50-90 nm on travel of one phoenix the bombers get through and can launch their kitchens or whatever soviets would throw at the CV group.. sinks, kitchens, dishware, sunburn )))

I fail to understand why offsetting to the side would be an impossible concept. It’s in 101 BVR. You’re playing chess here. You have to counter what you think they could do. The could come in on column to their IP then go abreast for attack. But keep in mind the Red Crown being offset would TELL you they see multiple contacts. Then your job is to put the plane in a position to hit them all asap. 
 

In Fleet defense the AWG-9 is only one piece of the system. And it’s fairly far along the chain from, “contact at 250NM” to “Splash”.

 

Also the F-15C is an FC plane and so uses gamey radar, don’t use it as a standard for how 3rd party fully modeled radars should work.

[Kaktus]

interesting points, but the offsetting does reduce phoenix range as instead of head on it’s not 30 degree offset or more even, in my game the bombers launch the missiles and they mostly hit … I put a single cv not a 20 ship DD cover screen as grim reapers do as yes surprise attack does happen and surprisingly those kh35 did their job good

 

back to radar and intercept angles, for successful intercept o see no other way but constant patrols of at least two tomcats with 4 phoenix each and lots of fuel, a tanker to give them more time on job so you can do 24/7 patrol and e2 hawkeye at 50 nm from cv so potentially you see bears at 300 nm from cv. …. Lots of resources are burned just to give a hypothetical protection … if they are tu22 which go supersonic and can fly hugging sea floor I guess it complicates situation even more so