Beating MiG-29 with F-4

[Civetta_ITA]

Hi everyone — I’ve been trying to settle a question that’s been bugging me in DCS: is it realistically possible to beat a MiG-29 in a dogfight flying an F-4 (in a head on merge)?

I’ve been using one of the preset F-4 vs MiG-29 missions included in the F-4 package and every time I get into a visual dogfight with a MiG-29 I end up getting out-turned or killed despite trying my best. 

I’m not trying to argue realism here — I know the Phantom is an older airframe — but I’d like to know if anyone has reliable tactics that make an F-4 competitive in a pure dogfight.

I try to keep my energy and avoid sustained turning fights but the MiG usually manages to force a turning engagement or get behind me quickly after the initial pass. 

Thanks in advance.

[Hiob]

"It's not the plane, it's the pilot!" (Rooster)

I'd rather sit in the Fulcrum though, if I had to choose....

[Smokin1469]

Unless the Fulcrum pilot makes a major mistake, your chances of beating a Fulcrum in a visual fight (while flying an F-4) are almost nil.  Fulcrum has significant advantages in turn rate and radius, thrust to weight, and weapons.  I know a pilot who's flown both the Fulcrum and Viper and he says the Fulcrum is very hard to beat in a visual fight, even against the F-16.  

[TheBiggerBass]

I guess the F-4 would just be prey for a MiG-29. The F-16 as a 4th gen aircraft too and F-4 successor will have an equal chance

Edited October 16 by TheBiggerBass

[Civetta_ITA]

Thanks for your replies...now I feel less incompetent eh eh

[Istari6]

It's a generational leap, and the Fulcrum wasn't just 4th generation, it was perhaps the best pure WVR dogfighter of the 4th generation.  The Phantom was 3rd generation, and it wasn't even particularly good at WVR dogfighting in the 3rd generation - see MiG-21 for a better 3rd gen dogfighter.  So it's not just 3rd gen vs 4th gen, it's "average" 3rd gen dogfighter versus the "best of the best" 4th gen dogfighter.  That's a big leap in technological quality, and unless the other pilot makes major mistakes, you're likely doomed.  

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I managed to beat a MiG-29 once in a dogfight. The other times, I got my behind handed back to me

[Mud]

4 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I managed to beat a MiG-29 once in a dogfight. The other times, I got my behind handed back to me

Let me fly that MIG-29 and you'll win every time. I promise!

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, Mud said:

Let me fly that MIG-29 and you'll win every time. I promise!

It’s a date!

[Karon]

On 10/16/2025 at 2:53 PM, Civetta_ITA said:

Hi everyone — I’ve been trying to settle a question that’s been bugging me in DCS: is it realistically possible to beat a MiG-29 in a dogfight flying an F-4 (in a head on merge)?

I’ve been using one of the preset F-4 vs MiG-29 missions included in the F-4 package and every time I get into a visual dogfight with a MiG-29 I end up getting out-turned or killed despite trying my best. 

I’m not trying to argue realism here — I know the Phantom is an older airframe — but I’d like to know if anyone has reliable tactics that make an F-4 competitive in a pure dogfight.

I try to keep my energy and avoid sustained turning fights but the MiG usually manages to force a turning engagement or get behind me quickly after the initial pass. 

Thanks in advance.

You have a pretty good understanding of the issue: when the MiG-29 showed up, the F-4E was still capable of do well in A/A, but F-14/15/16/18 had better chances.

The Phantom II has some advantages: on paper better medium-range missile, four eyes, better avionics in some regards. Besides that, you have better endurance. Almost everything else is against you so, if I were you, I'd try to gain an advantage during the transition from BVR to WVR, assess the situation then, worst case, blow through and bugout. Depending on the fuel status and DI, you should be able to maintain separation enough to return to friendly lines.

This situation reminds me of the F3 vs other aircraft. There are a few interviews here and there on this topic (check Aircrew Interview), they are quite interesting.

[mondo]

It's entirely possible to beat the Mig 29 in the merge. As you merge keep on flying. The Mig 29 will run out of fuel catching you up. Manoeuver kill.

[Kalasnkova74]

On 10/16/2025 at 8:53 AM, Civetta_ITA said:

Hi everyone — I’ve been trying to settle a question that’s been bugging me in DCS: is it realistically possible to beat a MiG-29 in a dogfight flying an F-4 (in a head on merge)?

I’ve been using one of the preset F-4 vs MiG-29 missions included in the F-4 package and every time I get into a visual dogfight with a MiG-29 I end up getting out-turned or killed despite trying my best. 

I’m not trying to argue realism here — I know the Phantom is an older airframe — but I’d like to know if anyone has reliable tactics that make an F-4 competitive in a pure dogfight.

I try to keep my energy and avoid sustained turning fights but the MiG usually manages to force a turning engagement or get behind me quickly after the initial pass. 

Thanks in advance.

Good timing on your post. I recently switched my F-4E BFM training mission opponent from an aced MiG-15 to the MiG-29. 

After losing the first ten fights, I’ve killed the Fulcrum 4x. The last two were head on gun passes.

Im still paying my skill tax, but the core tactic is to pretend you’re in an F-104. Only turn in enough to force a head on pass. Fix the cannon sight and hose that MiG with 20mm at the merge. If he’s still alive, keep flying straight until you’ve got some knots back, then gently turn back. Feel free to cash in some energy to make the head on merge happen, because you’re not turning after his tail. 

In case I didn’t make this clear, don’t turn in after the Fulcrum- even if he makes an error and gives you his six. No amount of BFM skill will overcome a Fulcrum’s thrust and turn advantage at close range. You’ll saddle into the control zone long enough to see him shake you off like a bad Facebook post. Act like Maverick here and you’ll get shot down like him. Even if you’re good and force an in-close overshoot by the MiG , you won’t have the energy to do anything to the Fulcrum. 

Dont bother with Sparrows or older Sidewinders unless the MiG loses sight and leaves the fight. If he goes vertical , don’t follow him up unless you’re above Mach. 
Flying big ovals might not win any visual effects Oscars, but you’ll still bag a Fulcrum or two with a Phantom. 

 

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 10/21/2025 at 1:45 AM, mondo said:

The Mig 29 will run out of fuel catching you up.

AI MiG-29s perhaps, but players are smarter than AI: if I do a dogfight in a MiG-29 against an AI F-15/16/18 (with both of us starting at identical amounts of fuel), the AI runs out of fuel first, and I still have enough to fly to the opposite side of the map to land.
Manoeuvre kill!