More Damage output from the 20mm Hispano Cannons on the Spitfire MK IX

[JFulls]

The HEI/SAPI rounds of the 20mm Hispanos seems very underpowered compared to other (much later war) comparable ww2 aircraft. I understand that DCS is not bult with a ww2 damage model in mind but the spitfire already lacks speed and ammo capacity, and it seems that the explosive destructive force of the 20mm cannons is not in my opinion represented correctly. 

Please ED give the much loved Spitfire some love  

 

Thanks for reading  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc9E8_ZuESQ

 

[motoadve]

I think the Spitfire 20mm is pretty powerful, and with regards to the DCS WW2 DM

DCS World features a sophisticated, custom-developed WWII damage model (DM) that precisely simulates hits to internal aircraft systems and structural elements. This model is designed to provide highly realistic, location-specific damage consequences, starting with the WWII aircraft and intended for expansion to other modules. 

The damage model is a complex system that tracks damage based on the type of munition, velocity, and exact location of impact, taking into account various components and materials. 

Key features and effects include:

• System Damage: Projectiles passing through the aircraft can damage specific systems, including:
  • Oil, hydraulic, and cooling systems.
  • Engine and propeller components.
  • Flight controls, including trim tabs and connectors.
  • Load-bearing airframe elements like longerons, spars, and stringers.
• Realistic Visual Effects: The model produces distinct visual cues to help pilots understand the damage sustained. These can include:
  • White/reddish vapor trails for hydraulic leaks.
  • Fine brownish haze for oil leaks (leading to eventual engine failure from starvation/overheating).
  • Bright white steam trails for radiator/cooling system damage.
  • Realistic fire effects and improved bullet impact visuals.
• Consequences: Damage directly affects the aircraft's flight model and performance. For example, damage to a wing skin decreases lift, while damage to a spar can reduce structural strength and potentially lead to the wing snapping off under load. Damage can also sever internal components like ammo belts, causing guns to run out of ammunition prematurely.

 

System Damage Effects

• Hydraulic System Damage: A hit to a hydraulic line results in a white/reddish vapor trail. The loss of fluid will lead to lower actuation rates or diminished range of travel for control surfaces (ailerons, rudder, elevator, flaps), making the aircraft sluggish and difficult to maneuver. This often requires high pilot workload to maintain control, especially during landing.
• Oil System Damage: Damage to the oil system is indicated by a fine brownish haze leak. This leads to oil starvation and engine overheating, which will eventually cause the engine to seize and fail completely.
• Cooling System/Radiator Damage: A bright white steam trail signifies a damaged radiator or cooling line. Like oil damage, this leads to rapid engine overheating and eventual failure.
• Engine Damage: Direct hits can cause immediate engine failure, power loss, or violent vibrations that make flight difficult. A destroyed engine can also impact other systems that rely on engine power.
• Electrical Failures: Damage can cause a variety of electrical problems, such as the loss of cockpit instruments, MFDs (Multi-Function Displays), radios, or radar capabilities. 

 

Structural Damage Effects

• Wing Skin Damage: Holes in the wing skin reduce the wing's lift capability, affecting the aircraft's overall performance and handling.
• Spar/Structural Damage: Hits to main strength elements like spars and longerons weaken the airframe's integrity. The aircraft may seem flyable initially, but applying too much stress during maneuvers can cause the wing or other parts to snap off under load.
• Control Surface Damage/Loss:
  • Losing an aileron on one wing creates significant roll asymmetry, forcing the pilot to use heavy and sustained opposite rudder or elevator trim to keep the wings level.
  • A damaged elevator or rudder can reduce pitch or yaw authority, making the aircraft difficult to control, particularly at low speeds during approach. 

 

Other Specific Examples

• Propeller Damage: Ground strikes or bullet hits can cause propeller damage, leading to severe engine vibration and a need for immediate repair or an emergency landing.
• Ammunition/Fuel: Damage can sever internal ammo belts, causing a gun to run out of ammunition prematurely, or hit a fuel tank, leading to a catastrophic fuel leak and potential fire. 

These effects require the pilot to manage a degraded aircraft using emergency procedures and skill, significantly increasing the challenge of returning to base. 

 

 

 

 

[JFulls]

yes I'm aware of the currant damage model, but when you compare this to actual gun cam footage even from a 50cal. they are worlds apart visually, aircraft break up in a far more dynamic way as apposed to a set break point at the tail of a P51 or wing root of the spit. the functionality aspect is there yes, but it does not feel like the 20s pack the punch that they should, the fact that when on someone's 6 a 20mm can not travel the length of the thin skinned aircraft is quite frankly not great, it would absolutely tare though causing spall. the 30mm of the 109 has a set explosive radius, it seems the explosive effect of the 20mm HIE round hardly even is present, you overly rely on a lucky shot - thus my suggestion to buff the damage output of the 20s     

Edited yesterday at 05:51 PM by JFulls

[Gunfreak]

WW2 aircraft are missing lots of parts that can be destroyed.

They can't blow up, they can't have their wings shot off. They generally surive more than they should.

Here's a description of the 20mm Hispano.

I don't feel the 20mm is particularly frightening, nor does it mutilate the German aircraft

 

 

When it comes to the lack of wings getting shot off. 

In the book Fighter Group about the 352nd.

John C. Meyer had a 109 on his tail, however he also saw George Preddy was coming up behind the 109. So he slowed down, the 109 slowed down to not overtake Meyer. In comes Preddy fires a short burst and the 109 loses a wing. And this was in a P51B, so we are talking just 4 .50cals here. Not 6 from the D, not 8 from the P47, and definitely not 20mm Hispano.

 

[mostevil]

As someone who flys a lot of WWII and has done a fair bit of game engine development, if all that is designed in, it just isn't working at all in practice.  

HE/Frag
Flak should be a shrapnel effect but it seems to be treated as a HE blast, anything in the radius gets damaged, if it's close enough you take damage to every surface and every part of the engine at once, yet weirdly the pilot is almost always totally fine (see below).  It's all or nothing from a frag blast, when it should be like a shower of light frag, ironically the most danger is to the pilot.
With everything using the shilka algorithm they also all get modern radar gunnery, even through cloud without any kind of radar director, that can make it crazy effective as direct AAA too.  Real flak direction was horribly ineffective needing thousands of rounds and area saturation per kill. (although late war allies did get radar flak, usually on warships 5" secondary batteries)

Penetration
The AP 20mm just don't penetrate, if you hit the tail it shows damage to the tail, hit the wing, regardless of angle, hole in the wing (doesn't do much).  If you fire up into the engine or kick the rudder to shoot in from the side it will fairly easily knock out the engine but it I've not seen it penetrate through the aircraft to the engine as a 20mm AP easily can.
The seat armour in the german fighters can just stop 0.50cal, a 20mm can penetrate and turn a chunk of that armour into shrapnel.  The pilot wouldn't survive. An unspotted bounce was just as deadly from a SpitfireIX as from a 109k4.  But you need to hit from specific angles to make it do anything in DCS.

We rarely see those rear/underseat tanks get punctured or ignite when hammering the rear of aircraft that have them.  Self sealing tanks only do so much, with allied incendiary rounds in tests  detonating those around 30% of the time (some cool guncam footage out there).  It'd self seal vs machine gun calibre ball, AP or frag, but only up to a certain size, it shouldn't self seal a 20mm hole.

Rear Damage Cheese
Top axis players in pairs have a strategy of just ignoring fire from the rear to drag even for very close in aircraft if they have friends nearby because of this, one 30mm will end the allied aircraft before the 20mm can destroy him (if at all).  Often they don't even need to go home or fall behind after this.
I've been able to ignore hundreds of hits from the rear in 109's as I run.   If they're out of 20mm there's no danger at all.  That close 6 position is an almost guaranteed kill in reverse.  It's clearly not correct.

HE is much more powerful as it effectively ignores armour.  Wherever it hits anything in the radius gets damaged.  Negating armour.  The opposite of how it should work, armour is strong vs non-AP damage.  The german HE/frag was strongest against wooden soviet aircraft.  The 30mm admittedly is big enough that tails coming off isn't unreasonable. 

Spar Damage
But 20mm hispano to the wing root should equally weaken the wing spars enough that the wing would be off under most flying conditions. 
In thousands of hours I've only seen wings come off the Spitfire.  And I think that's usually just an effect of it being very sensitive to pulling more than 5g at >400mph rather than damage.
I'm also not totally convinced the german MG's aren't being treated as HE rather than the micro frag damage the really do.

Skin damage creates some instability but doesn't noticably affect speed.   The drag penalty from all the holes we see in a fuselage should be very signifcant.  Small aerodynaic differences make large max speed differences, so a big holes or even lots of little ones should be bad.

Pilots
Pilots kills are extremely rare even with masses of clear hits down into cockpits from or through the sides have no effect at all most of the time.  Even 303's have no trouble penetrating glass and thin side walls or pilots, but in the game we joke they're just BB's for tickling.  The only ones I commonly see are on the Anton.  Other aircraft pilot kills are basically never happening.  So the pilot hit box is tiny, isn't working most of the time or the glass/side skin is stopping them for some reason.

Ground units
Ironically the same guns are very effective at longer ranges vs much more heavily armoured ground units than they are vs fighter aircraft.  

I don't think it's so much that the 20mm hispano needs a buff, I think penetration isn't being modelled and things that are actually frag are being handled as HE pressure radiuses because the shell is called HE.
The damage model you describe just isn't working.

Are we pretending this doesn't go through a light fighter?

[FLYBOYWANNABE]

I 100% Agree with JFulls and we each OVER AND OVER the Hispano’s shred the Anton’s with NO EFFECT

Mostevil NAILS IT

[Talisman_VR]

Very much agree with the OP.  I keep trying to enjoy WW2 with DCS, but this sort of thing eventually sends me elsewhere for long periods.  Then I come back and try again, but still very little joy.  Certainly not enough joy to stay and make more purchases.  Very sad.  

I have always felt that WW2 is the poor relation with DCS, with jets and missiles being what it is really all about.  Fishing in an empty pond comes to mind.

Happy landings,

Talisman

Edited 8 hours ago by Talisman_VR