Tactic maps

[FGSchtuzer]

We're interested to know how many people from our community are able to read the map attached.

 

Could you describe what events took place, are happening now or will occur in the area marked.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

:pilotfly:

[Chopper_Pork]

Hello,

From what I saw on your map I'd say following (no expert in reading tactical maps btw):

 

- Some entrenched blue units in a kind of valley (only way out being SW)

- One flight of Ka-50 circling around blue units (Waypoints ctrl 10 - 15) with it's ingress point at ctrl 15.

- A flight Of 2 Su-25's providing ATG support from NW, disengaging to NE

- Allied red units on top of the hills surrounding the blue ones, while one red group cutting of their way so they cannot get out of the valley.

 

It seems to be a very uncomfortable situation for the blue units. But hey, they've crossed the border first :)

 

Might be cool to play this scenario. Are you working on a campaign?

 

Greetings Chopper Pork

[FGSchtuzer]

Hi Chopper_Pork,

 

As for guy who pretends to be no expert on reading tactical maps, you did a nice job :thumbup:.

 

Still, the map shows more than that. You've described a situation in static mode. Try to make it dynamic, like: who did what, what are the prospective tasks\actions for each unit etc. Of course, tactical map is just part of information available to the pilot, one will certainly get a briefing at HQ and instructions via radio while in flight.

Nevertheless, we believe that pilot should always know a little more than his direct mission in order to make better decisions if smth goes not according to plan.

 

 

Might be cool to play this scenario. Are you working on a campaign?

 

Greetings Chopper Pork

 

Yeah, you cracked a second nut...:smilewink: Since we already put some pictures and words about it in Russian part of the forum, I will do the same here.

 

Yep, this is one of the maps for mission 013 of "Vergeev group" campaign. My collegue leroni (btw, he is lieutenant colonel in reserve :police:) with my assistance and back-up is developing the first part of "Vergeev group" campaign which consists of approx. 200 missions. Scenario for 186 mission is ready. This results in 100 days of training&fighting tasks for a pilot who is doing 1-3 flight daily.

 

Working for a few months by now in close contact with DCS team, who provides us with valuable advice. We want to make it as realistic as it is at all possible utilizing the tools DCS: Ka-50 Black Shark provides.

The announcement has been delayed a number of times. Initially, we started to develop it suitable to vast majority of players compromising towards arcade (but still very realistic). But keeping in mind our initial idea and hearing to advice of experienced "wolfs", we decided to proceed as necessary.

The campaign is developed in both Russian and English versions. The audio dubbing is mutli-voice with professional actors. Therefore, we had a delay with epidemic flu, when nearly all actors got sick. FYI, we included a small bonus for English language community - the actors where asked, despite their nice English, not to hide the Russian accent. It is still well understandable, but gives you a local atmosphere. You should like it.

The third delay reason is our own decision. We planned to release 10 those "arcade" missions as demo-version but then decided it will not be a good example of standard we are keeping to.

We will release 3 "hardcore" missions (11, 12, 13) from the campaign in late January. We have to allow the actors to earn some money on New Year and Christmas parties...:P

 

These missions are not dull at all, meant for a pilot with 40 hours of flight time. Based on real life, where along with routine one have to handle difficult non-typical and fighting tasks. The total campaign flight time when completed will constitute approx. 200 hours.

 

Despite we sometimes fly every mission 6-8 times, we enjoy our job a lot. And hope, that you will love it too. :music_whistling:

 

Attached find few pictures and maps. Later I might post the briefing for mission #13. The maps are based on DCS: BlackShark map editor screenshots and markings are based on 2007 "General tactics" guide-book of Russian army with some modifications. In communication between pilot and ground, pilot and other pilots etc. we also preserved Russian army slang. No Charlie or Bravo - keeping that to A-10C release...:smartass:

Edited December 24, 2009 by =FG=Schtuzer

[Toast]

Wow thank you for all the hard work! I can't wait.

[Chopper_Pork]

Wow!

 

Good Morning Schtuzer

 

I'm very impressed with this ambitious project you guys have going on! I'd like to wish you all the best for finishing your work. Take the time you need.

Is 'Vergeev group' going to be a static campaign just like the stock 'Deployment', or more random based like the 'Georgian oil war'?

I'm so sure this campaign will be awaited patiently by the DCS community!

 

And thank you for giving a heads up also for the english speaking part of the forum :thumbup:

 

Greetings Chopper Pork

[FGSchtuzer]

Toast and Chopper Pork

 

Thanks for support.The campaign is going to be static.

 

The question in first post is not fully answered yet. Can anyone make a story out of that, not just bullets...:music_whistling:

 

 

[Distiler]

I love those strategic maps! One question, you talk about demo version and such, does it mean this will be a commercial product? as long as it's fairly priced, I'm in!

[FGSchtuzer]

Yes, the campaign is a commercial project (it can't be simply other way around considering all the work done\to be done). The price should be fine.

[isoul]

From what I see(I am not expert in reading tactical maps either) and before I read what others posted here is what I get out of the map :

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Tactical Situation :

Blue Team got stuck and set defensive positions in a small plain area surounded by mountains just south of the "Elevation 16324". Red Team forces divided into 4 groups (Voron1,2,3,4) have surrounded the Blue team by taking positions on the elevated ground N,S,E,W of the Blue Team's position. Apart form these, a 5th group(consisted of groups Sopka-3, 4) of the Red Team have taken position (almost 1km SW) in support of the Voron-4 group.

 

The Blue Team (judging from the continuous blue arrows) tried already to break encirclement by assaulting Voron-4 and Voron-3 positions unsuccefully. Voron-4 counter-attacked(judging from the continuous red arrow) but were repelled by the rest of the Blue Team's defenders.

 

Possible shift of the situation

The only possible escape route for the Blue Team is to create a diversion by attacking Voron-4 and try to break encirclement by passing throught the gap between Voron-4 and Voron-2 positions. From there they can pass to elevated ground and escape towards the Russo-Georgian border to the S (almost 3km from the time they reach the foothills). This scenario is extremely risky given, the mobilization of the Red Team forces, but its possible since the Blue Team is in disadvantageous position.

 

Tactical Planning :

Given the situation, the Red Team is sending in a flight of SU-25 (Sudar) and a group of Ka-50 (Tur-233) in the area. Sudar will approach from NW striking the Red Team's defensive positions and break to the NE. Tur-233 will fly a circle path around Red Team's position (Waypoints Ctrl10-15) and commense their attack with ingress point Ctrl15. The groups Voron1-4 will advance from all sides towards Blue Team's position (I pressume afted Sudar and Tur-233 have completed their attack runs)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I dunno how good I was but, in case I red the map right, may I make a few questions and comments on that? Possibly I can make a fictinal but close to reality scenario of how Blue Team ended up on that position(which is totally wrong judging it from tactical perspective according to my little experience in military service).

Edited January 2, 2010 by isoul

[Frederf]

I want to know what software helped your draw that plan!

[FGSchtuzer]

I dunno how good I was but, in case I red the map right, may I make a few questions and comments on that? Possibly I can make a fictinal but close to reality scenario of how Blue Team ended up on that position(which is totally wrong judging it from tactical perspective according to my little experience in military service).

 

You described the development of the situation correctly. The only small things I can add are:

1) Voron-4 was trying to attack blue forces but came across the minefields set up by blue team. The mines are also shown to the east and west of blue position, but this is a mistake that we will correct (since red did not approach blue from these directions they can't report on minefields).

2) The attacks of Su-25 and Ka-50 are marked as uncompleted so this is correct to state that these are future (planned) events.

3) The time and coordination of actions will be additionally explained by flight operations officer (FOO) and during briefing at HQ. It's not directly indicated on the map (however, one can logically understand that).

 

Of course, you are welcome to put additional questions and comments. We will appreciate any effort to help us polish the campaign.

Since this is mission 13, this story has start and finish. The player will, of course, be informed about background when launching this mission.

Edited January 2, 2010 by =FG=Schtuzer

[zdXu]

We will release 3 "hardcore" missions (11, 12, 13) from the campaign in late January. ...

 

markings are based on 2007 "General tactics" guide-book of Russian army with some modifications.

 

Some questions:

1) what is the meaning of hardcore here? Super difficult to survive or the setting is ultra(hardcore)-realistic?

2.) do you have a link for the general tactics-guide-book of russian army 2007 or a document which explains the tactical signs of your tactical map?

Edited January 2, 2010 by zdXu

[EtherealN]

You might want to fire up google translate, but here's some help:

http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/takznaki.shtml

http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/takznaki-2.shtml

[isoul]

Some questions:

1) what is the meaning of hardcore here? Super difficult to survive or the setting is ultra(hardcore)-realistic?

 

I assume that the effort here is to have an ultra-realistic scenarios and briefings etc etc. This means you 'll live the (close to) real experience of the whole procedure and realistic situations.

[leroni]

I dunno how good I was but, in case I red the map right, may I make a few questions and comments on that? Possibly I can make a fictinal but close to reality scenario of how Blue Team ended up on that position(which is totally wrong judging it from tactical perspective according to my little experience in military service).

 

It is good that you have sufficient experience of the service in army. And more pleases that circumstance that in Greece there are many mountains, where for military men there are many cases to receive excellent experience.

 

Concerning a situation Вlue on a map... For envy they do not have the bases. Only grief. The good position for them, bad is has no value. They are surrounded and will perish. Truly they arrive in tactics or not - it is unimportant. A map for the Red side which strikes the last blow of such force that after not to spend force for transportation of the captured.

 

On it the history is not ended. It will be visible from the subsequent missions. For Dark blue enough heroism and good training to survive to 15 missions and very to anger Red.

[FGSchtuzer]

I want to know what software helped your draw that plan!

 

I can't tell you now, since it was my collegue leroni who draw the map. I've forwarded your question to him. What I know that it's based on in-game editor screenshot. He has also tried to draw the map by hand with pen tablet, which is more realistic (since real pilots draw it yourself) but, unfortunately, much more time-consuming. Maybe, he will show this handwritten version which, personally, I like a lot.

 

Some questions:

1) what is the meaning of hardcore here? Super difficult to survive or the setting is ultra(hardcore)-realistic?

 

I assume that the effort here is to have an ultra-realistic scenarios and briefings etc etc. This means you 'll live the (close to) real experience of the whole procedure and realistic situations.

 

Thanks isoul for answering this question. :thumbup:

 

2.) do you have a link for the general tactics-guide-book of russian army 2007 or a document which explains the tactical signs of your tactical map?

 

The link can be found via google or alike. E.g. http://window.edu.ru/window_catalog/redir?id=56730&file=harkev2.pdf

But it's in Russian. If I come across the translated material - I will post in this thread. The links posted above might also be useful (use online translation service).

[leroni]

I assume that the effort here is to have an ultra-realistic scenarios and briefings etc etc. This means you 'll live the (close to) real experience of the whole procedure and realistic situations.

 

If it is a question: an unambiguous answer do not receive. On it there are reasons. If it is a question of the supposition - in general they are true.

 

And than it is bad to try to participate in model of the realistic situation, especially not one, and almost 200?

[isoul]

Onto the point now...

 

=FG=Schtuzer I believe that you effort really deserves congratulations. The fact that the questions and remarks below will be (good-intended) criticism shouldn't discourage you or your team in this great idea and effort. The things that you do fine(in my opinion) will go un-commented, this won't mean I am ignoring them. I 'll just mention some questions that rise in my mind, since you are trying to make an ultra-realistic scenario, on things that seems odd to me. You may judge my comments and make changes or even reject them, but if you find any of my remarks well-pointed just bear them in mind for the rest of the missions. So we start...

 

1) Minefields - Judging from the position the Blue Team(BT) is in and from what you mention about minefields I assume that the area is something like a camp. Minefields take time to lay and can't be laid when under pressure by the enemy so they must have placed them before the situation turn so dramatic. Since BT is Georgia there is no need to place a minefield between them and their own country cause this blocks their escape route.

2) BT position - The BT's positions is completely disadvantageous while the Red Team(RT) hold high ground and are around them inside RT own territory, which is completely advantageous. This scenario leaves only two solutions to any reasonable commander... surrender or die trying to escape! I would suggest that BT position should be a forward commant post or artillery position(the position is ideal for placing howitzers or a command post) and BT should hold positions on elevated ground instead of Voron1,2,3. I would suggest to remove Voron-4 and relocate Sopka3,4 to the plains in the West. Voron1,2,3 should be trying to push the outer defensive perimeter of the BT's position inorder to overun it. That way the situation would be meaningful for both BT and for the call of CAS flight and the attack helicopters.

3) Flight path of Tur233 - The circling around BT position is wrong in my opinion because it casts the helos vulnerable for no apparent reason. Maybe the circling around would be done in order to perform a surveilance of the enemy positions but the Ka-50s are flying above elevated ground which makes them visible to BT's Anti-Air Defenses. Besides that, the circling is performed way to close to BT position(less that 4,5km) which place the helos inside the effective range of a Stinger missile. The whole circling around the enemy means that helos will lose the element of surprise. If I was on the RT I would send Tur233 behind Vorod1 position from where they should perform a pop-up attack or surveilance.

4) The Sudar team - I think that the deployment of SU-25 would make the work of the attack helis way to easy unless Tur233 mission is to Suppress Enemy Air Defenses in order for Sudar to strike unchallenged.

 

I hope you won't think I was too mean with you and didn't make you to lose heart. I just made a so detailed analysis cause you are trying to create an ultra-realistic situation and your effort is incredibly promising. Please keep up. The thing I would suggest is to put yourself in each side's position and think what you should do to beat your enemy and survive. Having at least two different persons planning the Blue and Red teams movements seperately would also help!

[leroni]

I want to know what software helped your draw that plan!

 

Tactical maps are made in program Adobe Illustrator. As background the map from DCS is taken: Ka-50 Black Shark.

[leroni]

isoul, I am author of campaign, the author of tactical situations who are used in campaign "Group Vergeev". I will try to answer your offers.

 

I never could make tactical map together with the opponent. Even on tactical (staff) doctrines Controllers could know real situation only. The parties could operate only with the data which were brought by investigation. But this data is no means always true, and by the time of when they are passed fighting divisions - they are become outdated. It is feature. Such reality.

 

Minefields... No, it not minefields. These are the mined approaches. Minefields have other icons. On map only prospective boundaries of mining are specified. Red Team (RT) only assume that they are. It is better to give point above, than more low. It too the good tool to be the winner in fight. RT believe that Blue Team mined approaches on all perimeter.

 

Voron-4 has made an attempt attacks from the South, but has been compelled to depart for old positions as it has appeared on mines. It was the encounter attack. Nobody has achieved favorable results.

 

In mountains quickly there comes night. On map there is badge of "light day». The night mountain combat is favorable to nobody: a lot of killed and crippled! Group RT staff develops the plan of drawing of bombing attack on in the specified place groups Sudar and Tur (player).

 

Excuse for repetition: positions Blue Team aren't favorable. Their position sad. They are doomed. And the only thing that they can make - to mine approaches. In their position this right decision. RT shouldn't search for the correct decision for BT. They wish to destroy BT. BT have taken cover in gorge where dense wood, rockets against planes and helicopters therefore can't use. Very small space.

 

Also for RT there is no necessity for sudden maneuver for Tur-233. Night, darkly. You sometime appeared in situation when you are in wood, and you are searched by helicopters? I was in such situation. It is very difficult to define in the dark where now there is helicopter. Therefore shoot on it you can not. And it is impossible to shoot! He you too doesn't see! Let and remains. And you will be live. And it is good.

 

The problem for Tur-233 - to pass on perimeter to define, whether were pulled out BT from environment. From above it to make easier, than to groups Voron. Then after blow Sudar, it beats rockets on area. It shoots blindly. At me it turned out time and again (mission testing), and there was result to 8 bandits.

 

Actions Sudar are rational. Explosions of heavy bombs in small space for certain will bring the big troubles BT. Plus, they will hurt mines that happens for certain and then groups Voron and Sopka can spend mop-up.

 

isoul, anybody badly doesn't think that your remarks and offers bad, and prevent to work to us. It not so. Absolutely on the contrary. Your messages help us to be guided with that, how much to you maps which will be used in campaign "Group Vergeev" are clear. Thanks for your attention.

 

For successful performance of missions in campaign it will be necessary to adhere strictly to the developed plan, and to carry out orders of the tactical officer.

[Frederf]

Tactical maps are made in program Adobe Illustrator. As background the map from DCS is taken: Ka-50 Black Shark.

 

Aww I thought it might be in some special program that is designed for such a thing. Good artisty then!

[leroni]

Thanks for so appreciation! We try.

 

From the experience I can not remember any soft which would help officers to make tactical maps. Us learnt to do it manually and pencils.

 

Probably that in modern Russian army such specialised soft are. Quite probably. But I don't know about it.

[zdXu]

Originally Posted by isoul

I assume that the effort here is to have an ultra-realistic scenarios and briefings etc etc. This means you 'll live the (close to) real experience of the whole procedure and realistic situations.

 

Thanks isoul for answering this question.

 

 

+1

 

Because of realism:

Dont presuppose that everybody uses during the starting the start-up cheat (win-home + pos1).

So i would appreciate if there is a critical time during start-up and take-off. that the briefing will clearly say how many time (or paraphrase it with "quickest startup" or something like that) the pilot has between entering the cockpit and taking-off.

[isoul]

@leroni :

 

Mate you answered all the questions/comments with a realistic enough scenario. I just missed the whole image (night, dense forested are). Its nice to assume things about the enemy (such as possible minefields or mined passages) cause it gives more realistic feeling of the situation (its impossible to know everything about your enemy).

 

One last thing...

Please don't make a "Nation VS Terrorist" scenario. I prefer to shoot at some heavy equipment that only a Tactical Army possess rather than shooting footsoldiers armed with missiles and a AAA at the best. I am mentioning that cause recently I ve seen a scenario about battling terrorists and then, in one mission, your HQ is under attack by tanks.... where the hell a terrorist got such material? Whats next a terrorist B-52???

Edited January 3, 2010 by isoul

[AKA_Clutter]

=FG=Schtuzer

=FG=Schtuzer and team,

 

Salute!

 

Having just read this thread, and having just attempted a 15 mission, multi-player campaign I know how difficult this is, as well as how much time it takes.

 

Looking forward to playing the missions and campaign!