Ka-50N/Sh, will we ever see it?

[itstimmeh]

Hi there

 

This is basically an open letter to the devs (and everyone else)

 

I made a mission where you've got to search an area of sea for 3 armed speedboats trying to make it to the shore. Its far too easy in the daytime, you can spot the boats almost on the horizon and pick them off with Vikhr or close-in to about 2k and let them have it with the cannon.

 

Then I tried to do it again in the dark and failed dismally, even being shot down on one attempt because by the time I'd seen one of the boats and swung round to engage it with the cannon it was already too late.

 

So I thought I'd write this.

 

We all know that the Ka-50a which we know and love has serious limitations when it comes to night sorties - Shkval cannot lock and track targets in low-light conditions, there is no FLIR system and NVGs are only useful for terrain-following and are generally rubbish for spotting targets at range.

 

In the real world there is are two upgrade packages to the standard aircraft; one which has a day/night camera, FLIR sensor and millimeter-wave radar mounted in two steerable turrets, and other where the shkval and laser are moved up and a single FLIR turrent sits below it. I've included a couple of pics below for the two aircraft.

 

It seems a real shame that we're basically being limited to dawn-till-dusk hours for our missions. Adding the night option to the aircraft and you're essentially adding 50% more playability for little overhead. The change in flight characteristics between the A and N/Sh versions are negligable, and the cockpit (if taking the easy route) would just require another switch to select from shkval to FLIR. AFAIK the radar is integrated into the ABRIS, and there is an overlay on the compass page that shows the radar return, although I've only seen one picture of the Sh and there are so many real-life variations of the Ka50 cockpit that I could be wrong, although this would be the easiest method of implementing it in DCS.

 

Oh well, maybe one day?

 

Still waiting for more news on the PCIP, while I'm at it!

 

If anyone wants the mission, I'm happy to send it :)

 

Happy hunting

Tim

Edited January 11, 2010 by itstimmeh

[joey45]

No we wont see it cos it is not in service. It's more like a concept.

[Lucas_From_Hell]

It's actually on the FAQ ;)

[GGTharos]

Then I tried to do it again in the dark and failed dismally, even being shot down on one attempt because by the time I'd seen one of the boats and swung round to engage it with the cannon it was already too late.

 

Program in some sort of CGI for it then, and use illumination rockets to help.

 

In the real world there is are two upgrade packages to the standard aircraft; one which has a day/night camera, FLIR sensor and millimeter-wave radar mounted in two steerable turrets, and other where the shkval and laser are moved up and a single FLIR turrent sits below it. I've included a couple of pics below for the two aircraft.

 

No one uses those packages RL. DCS:BS models the in-service helicopter.

 

It seems a real shame that we're basically being limited to dawn-till-dusk hours for our missions. Adding the night option to the aircraft and you're essentially adding 50% more playability for little overhead.

 

Both statements are incorrect. You have NVGs, you have illumination flares, and adding night capability just adds night capability, not 50% more playability. Part of a simulation is that you must learn to fly within the constraints of what you are given. It isn't a 'shame', it is simulation.

 

 

The change in flight characteristics between the A and N/Sh versions are negligable, and the cockpit (if taking the easy route) would just require another switch to select from shkval to FLIR. AFAIK the radar is integrated into the ABRIS, and there is an overlay on the compass page that shows the radar return, although I've only seen one picture of the Sh and there are so many real-life variations of the Ka50 cockpit that I could be wrong, although this would be the easiest method of implementing it in DCS.

 

You would be wrong, in that DCS models in-service aircraft, and further, it models these in high fidelity. There will be no 'easiest method of implementing' ... corner cutting to give you something the helicopter does not have. If they were to model an N/Sh, they model it all the way.

 

Oh well, maybe one day?

 

Very,v ery unlikely, AFAIK.

[Boberro]

Yeah what for is Search function.

[EinsteinEP]

"It isn't a 'shame', it is simulation."

 

Yet another excellent quote, GG! 100% agree and support!

 

Sorry for the lack of support, Timmeh, but many of Black Shark's fans actually enjoy working around the limitations of its accurately modeled systems. While you find it hampers engagement opportunities, us Elitists find such limitation immersive and enjoyable. (Writing it out like that makes Elitists seem masochistic. Maybe a grain of truth in that, eh?)

[liotczik]

For anyone who thinks, that all that NVG+FLIR business is like a walk in a park, think again. While using NVG on a desktop sim doesn't change much, what we see and how we feel, one of the AH-64 pilots described it like "flying while looking through a straw". Lack of peripheral vision kills, especially in helos. Another thing is that you loose some view resolution and ability to spot things (like electricity wires or enemies), as no NVGs can be compared to a human eye for that matter. You loose also partially or totally perception of distance, depth of view. FLIR, while being cool and really useful, also has it's own limitations and you need training and understanding of it, to use it efficiently and properly.

 

many of Black Shark's fans actually enjoy working around the limitations of its accurately modeled systems. While you find it hampers engagement opportunities, us Elitists find such limitation immersive and enjoyable.

 

That's exactly, why I support so much the idea of adding to the DCS smaller and somehow less capable aircraft, like AH-6. Less hardware, more stick'n'guts :)

[Panzertard]

...... "flying while looking through a straw"....... view resolution and ability to spot things (like electricity wires or enemies), .........also partially or totally perception of distance, depth of view.

 

Now that sounds like a experience you have while flying a desktop sim, alright. 2D vision, viewing the world through a straw, lack of depth perception, lack of contrast while using NVG.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Panzertard

[joey45]

^^ yes but with this new 3D vision... who knows?

[llama]

Now that sounds like a experience you have while flying a desktop sim, alright. 2D vision, viewing the world through a straw, lack of depth perception, lack of contrast while using NVG.

 

If those types of limitations were what we wanted then we could go back to longbow....lol

[Panzertard]

^^ yes but with this new 3D vision... who knows?

There's no substitute for reality.

We all preffer to have the lapdance instead of watching the movie ;)

[itstimmeh]

Hmmm, OK well it seems like I've been shouted down on this issue. Fair do's.

 

To put another point on it, using my mission as an example, at 0400 I cannot see the speedboats (using NVG and plain eyes) until about 0.5Km out. Typically they'll open fire even before I have them spotted in the shkval.

 

If I put the mission time forward 30 minutes I can see them on almost on the horizon and I can spot them on the shkval at a range of 20Km.

 

So maybe I should be passing judgement on the graphics engine rather than the avionics.

 

And yes, I did search for the above, people have commented on how the engine interprets what you can and can't see in the dark. The only other thread I could find about the Ka50 N/Sh was a thread asking what photos were what.

[EtherealN]

Actually, flying at night I wouldn't expect to spot speedboats until I'm very close either. I guess really strong moonlight might alleviate that, but I'm not sure. Very little contrast going on for such a scenario (whereas the speedboats will see you contrasted against the night sky).

 

Basically, the Ka-50 is not a night-fighter and the NVG's aren't meant to make it a night-fighter. It can be used as one in an emergency though, but if there's actual FLIR-equipped helicopters like the 52 and 28N around they wouldn't do that. So IMO the scenario is a bit like complaining that an A10 does crap in a GAI mission. :P

[itstimmeh]

All true.

 

/makes note to stop complaining and just have fun.

 

:)

 

Still wouldn't mind someone telling me when/if the PCIP is going to be released though.

[EtherealN]

Fun is good. :D

 

Though on that note, should be said that I personally find it a lot of fun to work with the Ka-50 at night. It raises the bar a bit on difficulty and, on a well designed map, really stresses the importance of good teamwork. So while it may not be entirely "realistic" to have such scenarios, they are still fun to fly and good training. :)

[itstimmeh]

So do I.

 

especially gunning it up the fjords at 250kts, 10m.

[GGTharos]

We don't know about PCIP yet... I mean it is certainly in the works, but no ETA :/

[itstimmeh]

Cool, thanks.

 

:)