Military Sensor/Missile capability

[GGTharos]

Raptor may be IR stealth but IR band is not the only one that EOS is looking for. There was a video on youtube discussing this issue.

 

Doesn't really matter. IR is the best detectable source. The rest is mostly used for discrimination IIRC.

 

And by the way, the moment Raptor turns his APG-77 on, it looses its main advantage, which suppose to be stealth.

 

It loses nothing, because it the APG-77 is an LPI radar. Even if it wasn't the F-22 is STILL STEALTH. What are you going to do if you see the radar painting you? Run away? That's about all you can do before half your squadron gets trashed.

 

If you're a stealth plane, you'll want your radar on, too - it's your most accurate source of info for weapons employment.

 

Reminder: SAM = PAK-FA STOP!

[jerom1992]

Stealth is relative, even IR detectability is relative...

If you are behind an F-22 on full burners, you will be more likely to detect him (and from longer range) then when the Raptor is on Cruise setting.

Also, with radar, you will be more likely to detect him from some angles then from other angles (ie. front will have lesser RCS then bottom, just because front has smaller surface then bottom).

 

EDIT: About the triangles and rectangles: in cockpit it looks like this, but i still don't know what's its function Cockpit

 

And this discussion about PAK FA vs. F-22... What's the point?? ... Cold war is over...

IMHO, PAK FA and F22 will never dogfight eachother or even fight eachother...

Edited February 23, 2010 by jerom1992

[A.S]

...hehe....40kft ..-40 - -60 °Celsius VS a burner ploom 1000°Celsius + ......

 

:D IR stealth

[jerom1992]

True is that it is more IR stealth then other planes; but sometimes I wonder about the effectiveness, just like A.S.

[GGTharos]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/IR_prop/IR_prop.htm

 

Draw your own conclusions.

[A.S]

..."active" IR scans (not passive sensors) :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

Where do you see anyone using 'active' IR scans?

The only time an IR flashlight has been used has been on ground applications and the range is fairly limited compared to passive sensors.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/IR_prop/IR_prop.htm

 

Draw your own conclusions.

If FAS is a valid source then R-27 EA does exist.

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP!

[A.S]

Where do you see anyone using 'active' IR scans?

The only time an IR flashlight has been used has been on ground applications and the range is fairly limited compared to passive sensors.

 

 

classified :D (edit: infrared wavelenght IR might be wrong in that means here.... )

Edited February 23, 2010 by A.S

[GGTharos]

Did you just equate actual, real physics and mathematics to a few pictures of missiles with black stripes and sharp nosecones?

 

Here's a better statement for you:

If you can show that the equation at the end is not suitable for the purpose of computing the maximum range of IR detection of an object by an IR detector in general, then this source is not valid.

 

It was nothing to do with the R-27EA (which must have existed as a prototype ... that was never used in practice).

[GGTharos]

Translation: Bull*** :D

 

classified :D

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

What are you going to do if you see the radar painting you? Run away?

It looks like running away is your idea.

 

If I know where you are because you are using your radar then I have an advantage and you are not stealth any more. I can now use EOS to finish the fight. Or range advantage with R-77 to finish the fight.

 

Raptor is an excellent airplane. It looks like PAK FA is shaping to be of an equal qualities.

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP!

[A.S]

Translation: Bull*** :D

 

translation s### :D

[GGTharos]

You have no advantages. Radar will still beat EOS; and the R-77 is still shorter ranged than AIM-120C justaboutanyversion. I guess we'll see how that changes when the new version of the R-77 comes around, but right now, the R-77 is a kinematic lemon that can achieve range parity with the 120 if it doesn't have to maneuver much ;)

 

It looks like running away is your idea.

 

If I know where you are because you are using your radar then I have an advantage and you are not stealth any more. I can now use EOS to finish the fight. Or range advantage with R-77 to finish the fight.

 

Raptor is an excellent airplane. It looks like PAK FA is shaping to be of an equal qualities.

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP!

[Antartis]

Once again, please stay on-topic!

 

It seems like there is a high demand for talking about WW2 aviation and the future of the RAAF so i allowed myself to move OT posts into two new threads:

 

WW2 Aviation:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=50384

 

RAAF Discussion:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=50385

 

Thanks!

 

 

I'm sure Groove will grab his hair, escaped ...

 

(Groove, make new topic for IR technology)

 

:D:D

[mikoyan]

You have no advantages. Radar will still beat EOS; and the R-77 is still shorter ranged than AIM-120C justaboutanyversion. I guess we'll see how that changes when the new version of the R-77 comes around, but right now, the R-77 is a kinematic lemon that can achieve range parity with the 120 if it doesn't have to maneuver much ;)

 

Where did you get the data to say that it is a lemon? Just a question

[GGTharos]

I asked someone who flew a fighter against another fighter equipped with it.

 

There are charts too, though not all are publicly accessible. I'll see if I can post a comparison chart at some point.

 

Where did you get the data to say that it is a lemon? Just a question

[Pilotasso]

Go GG and do that lemonade (R-77) :D

[MoGas]

Go GG and do that lemonade (R-77) :D

 

:megalol: I like those topics, where cocktails get mixed :thumbup:

[FeoFUN]

The most interesting thing is that apart from the main X-band AESA PAK FA will be equipped with the two sided L-band AESA, and i guess their main purpose is to detect VLO targets.

 

Of course, the L-band radar isn't so precise as X-band radar is, but it will be more than enough for firing the long-range IR missile like R-27ET or it's successor.

[GGTharos]

I don't think it's main purpose is to detect VLO objects, but it IS a nice backup against ECM in probably a lot of cases.

 

An aircraft that is stealthy in one band will be in another as well. Yes, the square meter count goes up as frequency goes down, but this L-Band radar will also have a significantly smaller aperture and (pure speculation on my part) pretty crummy vertical resolution. Basically it'll have astigmatism and focus of its beam will likely be worse than that of the FCR.

 

I'll also point out that stealth planes are stealth against surveillance radars as well. The F-117 that was shot down was acquired by a low frequency radar to begin with, and it happened at pretty close range.

 

Further, even if it is pretty dreadful of me to suggest, I would ask you to have a look at surveillance radar ranges on the internet. Take note that these things are a) huge and b) powerful, and then consider that whatever gets put up on the PAK-FA will be weaker. As a rule of thumb, consider a VLO aircraft to be detectable at 1/10th the range of a typical aircraft. Frequency doesn't matter - a VLO plane will still be VLO compared to a plane that isn't regardless of radar frequency.

[topol-m]

Radar will still beat EOS

 

Radar will beat EOS if it is used against a fighter that`s not using stealth. There was a post not so long ago that claimed F-15s could not detect/maintain stable lock against F-22 in visual range. We don`t have info at what distance the latest EOS systems are capable of detecting targets like F-22. Can somebody make an estimation at what distance the APG-77 and the latest EOS systems will detect F-22, then we can compare which beats which.

Edited February 23, 2010 by topol-m

[GGTharos]

I would estimate 8-10km detection against an F-22 (without afterburner) in the forward quarter for EOS. But take this with a grain of salt, too: we speculate more about a fighter's heat signature than we do about the F-22's RCS.

 

I'll try to pose the question in a different manner: Why, when knowing of the possibility of stealth development by the 'other side' (and I know it was a concern, it's been mentioned in OLD papers) has the USAF not been scrambling to equip everything with the latest in EOS technology, and they have been piling AESA radars onto everything instead?

Same with missiles: Where's that AIM-120IR?

 

The Russians aren't eactly going counter to this trend, either. The EOS has always, ALWAYS been the backup to the radar, not the other way around. And this is true even now, with stealth aircraft. If EOS really was 'all that', since after you can stealth against radar, jam a radar, detect a radar, go EOS vs. your radar emitting foe, etc, etc, WHY on earth is everyone still putting RADARS on their planes as the primary instrument of doom-bring goodness?

Edited February 23, 2010 by GGTharos

[topol-m]

I would estimate 8-10km detection against an F-22 (without afterburner) in the forward quarter for EOS. But take this with a grain of salt, too: we speculate more about a fighter's heat signature than we do about the F-22's RCS.

 

Then that could mean that the radar will win only in the forward quarter aspect.

[GGTharos]

I think the EOS would get a clear win in the rear aspect ... side RCS is also large, and in the case of the F-22 at least, the exchaust is hidden from the side.

 

But again, speculation on my part. :)