China shocks analysts by Flight Testing 5th gen JXX Stealth fighter

[SuperKungFu]

That's an awesome pic PAKFA...how big is the Su-47 compared to the rest of those planes?

[aaron886]

Hmm... this help any?

 

[PAKFA]

Edited February 18, 2011 by PAKFA

[Vekkinho]

^^^^

That guy sitting in the cockpit!

Isn't that Clint Eastwood?

[egorter]

:lol:he does look rather squinty

[RIPTIDE]

oh dear...

[PAKFA]

size match up

[Antartis]

New pictures

 

http://www.top81.cn/top81bbs/thread.php?cid=1&rootid=2900936&id=2900936

Edited March 30, 2011 by Antartis

[revalence]

Nice Antaris! China is going along well.... although there is proof that the J-20 does have some copied (hacking, unfortunately), parts form the PAK-FA, F-22, and F-35.

 

If you haven't looked already:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20

[revalence]

 

.Aboulafia said the J-20 might not even be all that stealthy from the front, thanks to its canards, which reflect radar energy as they rotate during flight

 

The U.S. may be overestimating the Chinese aircraft, just as the Air Force overestimated the Soviet MiG-25 Foxbat during the Cold War, Aboulafia said

 

“I think Joseph Nye said it best in Foreign Policy [magazine] this month: There is an American tendency to overestimate them, and Chinese hubris based on self-overestimation,” he said.

 

*I'll try not to speak for all Americans* ;)

 

In truth, you are right, but we can't really rely on theories at this point. I myself have Pro-American Hubris, and I would love to see America remain a superpower through my grandchildren's years (80 years+). However, this is not the case. America has 14 TRILLION dollars in debt, and unemployment problems. All those years over the span of 1980-2000, we had a span of the "Golden Ages" that we never knew before. But look what happened? We underestimated the Su-27 family, the MiG-29, and the advanced missiles that came along with it (R-73, R-77). We may not be overestimating China, but if they do hit that right spot for a perfect fighter, let it be. Its not like us, DCS and FC2 players could do anything. :)

Edited March 28, 2011 by revalence

[topol-m]

@Antartis

 

I can`t see a single photo. "404 Not Found"

[GGTharos]

They were rather over-estimated.

 

We underestimated the Su-27 family, the MiG-29, and the advanced missiles that came along with it (R-73, R-77).

[revalence]

They were rather over-estimated.

 

By the time we faced them in 1991 Persian Gulf, yes. But they weren't at their full potential, were they not? We later found the R-73 had a much better capability than any other short-range IR, and the R-77 had an equal or better range than the AIM-120, and so on. The Su-27 had much better maneuverability than an equal counterpart, and off-boresight target, and so did the MiG-29.

[GGTharos]

By the time we faced them in 1991 Persian Gulf, yes. But they weren't at their full potential, were they not?

 

Doesn't matter - as in wouldn't have made a huge amount of difference.

 

We later found the R-73 had a much better capability than any other short-range IR,

Not 'later'. It was known all along in terms of its WEZ - but it didn't help anyone ... including those MiGs that got into BFM with eagles.

 

and the R-77 had an equal or better range than the AIM-120, and so on.

Wrong again. R-77 may have been equivalnet to a 120A/B, but the C left it squarely in its dust in every parameter that matters. And when it comes to the A/B, the R-77 couldn't match it in production anyway ;)

 

The Su-27 had much better maneuverability than an equal counterpart,

Not really. The Su-27 is an excellent low-altitude dogfighter with great turning characteristics at slow speeds. Up high where the eagles like to fight, it lacks in energy. It all depends on whose fight you're going to fight.

 

 

and off-boresight target,

... but rather lacking in avionics and BVR/SA capability by comparison.

 

and so did the MiG-29.

The MiG-29 has its own advantages in terms of aerodynamics, but it is once more very much a 'depends when and where' question.

[Vekkinho]

That Wiki article on J-20 is full of impresions...Says lenght of J-20:19m, I'd say it much more...

[Pilotasso]

Wiki is even wrong on many aspects regarding much older aircraft and should taken with a big dose of salt. :)

[revalence]

Doesn't matter - as in wouldn't have made a huge amount of difference.

 

Not 'later'. It was known all along in terms of its WEZ - but it didn't help anyone ... including those MiGs that got into BFM with eagles.

 

Wrong again. R-77 may have been equivalnet to a 120A/B, but the C left it squarely in its dust in every parameter that matters. And when it comes to the A/B, the R-77 couldn't match it in production anyway ;)

 

Not really. The Su-27 is an excellent low-altitude dogfighter with great turning characteristics at slow speeds. Up high where the eagles like to fight, it lacks in energy. It all depends on whose fight you're going to fight.

 

 

... but rather lacking in avionics and BVR/SA capability by comparison.

 

The MiG-29 has its own advantages in terms of aerodynamics, but it is once more very much a 'depends when and where' question.

 

Apologies. Now that you do put these into light, I do see my obvious mistakes. Yes, I was speaking quite generally about these terms and such. However, what confuses me is the AIM-120C has a range of what? Roughly 40km. The R-77M1 is about 80km. And yes, the F-15 is much more optimized for high-altitude A2A. But, I wanted to prove the point that the Russians built a machine that surpasses ours in the areas we lack in (more or less). Yes, I might have inflated some capabilities and ignored advantages of the U.S. machines, but its still true, we might be underestimating China, like we did to Russia.

[GGTharos]

However, what confuses me is the AIM-120C has a range of what? Roughly 40km.

 

C4 up to C7 are between 60 and 80km. The D is even longer ranged.

 

The R-77M1

does not exist except on paper or some sort of prototype testing stage if at all.

 

And yes, the F-15 is much more optimized for high-altitude A2A. But, I wanted to prove the point that the Russians built a machine that surpasses ours in the areas we lack in (more or less).

 

They did not. They built a machine suitable to their purposes. It's aerodynamics package is actually similar to that of an F-18, engines aside.

 

Yes, I might have inflated some capabilities and ignored advantages of the U.S. machines, but its still true, we might be underestimating China, like we did to Russia.

 

It was not, and still is not true.

[revalence]

You don't miss anything, do you, GGTharos? :) I am am thoroughly amazed at your knowledge of aircraft.

I suppose you are correct, and its useless to argue anyways.:thumbup:

 

Best regards,

Revalence

[GGTharos]

Most of the stuff out on the internet is either not quite right or does not carry the disclaimers it should ;)

 

You don't miss anything, do you, GGTharos? :) I am am thoroughly amazed at your knowledge of aircraft.

I suppose you are correct, and its useless to argue anyways.:thumbup:

 

Best regards,

Revalence

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Wrong again. R-77 may have been equivalnet to a 120A/B, but the C left it squarely in its dust in every parameter that matters.

There is new RVV-AE out. It has larger engine.

 

And when it comes to the A/B, the R-77 couldn't match it in production anyway ;)

Says who? What do you know about Vympel production capability?

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP!

[GGTharos]

There is new RVV-AE out. It has larger engine.

 

'Out' where? Who bought it?

 

Says who? What do you know about Vympel production capability?

 

The fact that they did not produce a significant number for years after its introduction; the fact that engineers knowledgeable on the subject have been telling us that there were production quality issues with certain electronic components needed for it, etc.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

'Out' where? Who bought it?

Well, larger engine RVV-AE (R-77) is out, and range is probably again in favor of R-77.You appear to agree with that. I will speculate and say that there is also a new guidance software in these new RVV-AE so that they can also fly high and get even larger range. After all, RVV-AE has been aground for 20 + years and I am sure there are software/hardware improvements that are implemented in current production.

 

So, if you have money, you can buy RVV-AE. If there is a need Russia will buy it. Which version of RVV-AE is going on a new Su-35 and Su-34 fleet?

 

The fact that they did not produce a significant number for years after its introduction; the fact that engineers knowledgeable on the subject have been telling us that there were production quality issues with certain electronic components needed for it, etc.

This is just a negative spin on problems that every project and product goes through. First of all, there was no need to produce large numbers of RVV-AE.

 

Then, when it comes to problems, for example, we all see that F-35 is plagued with problems, yet we all know it will be produced in needed numbers as the time goes on. Same with RVV-AE.

 

Reminder: SAM = Stealth STOP!

[GGTharos]

Well, larger engine RVV-AE (R-77) is out, and range is probably again in favor of R-77.You appear to agree with that.

 

No, I appear to be questioning your statement that such a product exists and isn't another one of those funny marketing half-truths that have been seen before ... sure, it can go 80km ... when you shoot it at a Mach 2 non-maneuvering target head-on at 15km altitude. I would appear to be stating that you like making things up.

 

I would also appear to be agreeing that Russia only needs the RVV-AE currently, if at all, as a stop-gap missile since they've decided to develop a replacement, and there's little point in pouring money into the RVV-AE.

 

This is just a negative spin on problems that every project and product goes through. First of all, there was no need to produce large numbers of RVV-AE.

Yeah. An endemic problem in the Russian electronics manufacturing capability at the time is 'negative spin' on R-77 development. Ok. Edited March 30, 2011 by GGTharos

[RIPTIDE]

Can we keep this thread about J-20? I hope I'm not unreasonable. You ladies have bantered on about these missiles since I've been a member. I'm guessing you've been at it for years. LMAO. :)