FC2 A2A Changes

[Alfa]

Jens, you left test team why again? ;)

 

I thought it would be all about the A-10C :D

[Alfa]

Exactly, but on the other hand, cruise missiles are not very fast and manouverable :)

 

Well some are - although probably not the ones the MiG-31 was supposed to counter :) .

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

AFAIK the deal with the "R-27EM" is quite similar to that of the "R-27AE"......i.e. something that was under consideration at one point, but never made it into operational use.

 

So the question is whether it should be in the game at all.

I have few Flanker books and have seen many, many flanker pictures. I have never seen what is suppose to be an R-27EM. There is only one drawing of the R-27EM that I am aware of and it is in the "soviet/Russian Aircraft Weapons" book, page 49.

 

On the other hand the R-27AE .....

[Kula66]

I thought it had a seeker optimised for over-water use ... what ever that means.

[GGTharos]

It means it rejects sea-type clutter much better and can hit small maneuvering targets (ie. harpoon missiles ... ) in such situations. The fuze was modified for the same IIRC.

[Kula66]

So have any changes been done to the high/low shots versus low/high shots?

[GGTharos]

Yes, but not very much.

[Kula66]

Shame, I get the impression it makes a huge difference ...

[GGTharos]

For better missile physics, unfortunately you have to wait on DCS :)

[Kula66]

Oh, well ... off to buy FC2 - well done ED!

[RvEYoda]

missiles tend to use better loft paths (or maybe just my imagination).

From what ive seen this favors shooting from a high altitude

[Kula66]

Good to know, thanks Yoda.

[Panzertard]

missiles tend to use better loft paths (or maybe just my imagination).

From what ive seen this favors shooting from a high altitude

Yes, noticed the same.

Interestingly I also noticed a maddog AIM-54 go into higher orbit at one stage, passed 200,000 before it dissapeared. :D

[foxwxl]

AFAIK the deal with the "R-27EM" is quite similar to that of the "R-27AE"......i.e. something that was under consideration at one point, but never made it into operational use.

 

So the question is whether it should be in the game at all.

 

well in the real life, R-27EM and R-27AE is a development from the R-27ER, which EM use a SARH guidence better against the sea-level missile target and the AE use a ARH guidence to improve the R-27 family.

 

They are both said in service in 1990 , but actually no prove of that, I think they may be the abandon project. R-77 has take the place of R-27AE.

 

And also in the real world we even not seen much pictures show R-27ERs are in combat service, usually R-27ER/ET are placed on ground at the AIR SHOW. Many pictures still show that the mostly used R-27 in current day is R-27R1 both in Russia and China......But if we put this into FC2, the consequence will be........:doh:

[GGTharos]

Many pictures still show that the mostly used R-27 in current day is R-27R1 both in Russia and China......But if we put this into FC2, the consequence will be........:doh:

 

You are correct, and you are correct.

Training is even done with R-27R1, not R-27ER ... I hear a lot about the R1 being the primary anti-fighter weapon, not the ER.

[foxwxl]

Much lighter weight, Lower speed , make the same G limited R1 version much more maneuverable than the ER.

Also it is said that ER's target is those maneuving under 5G guys

[Alfa]

well in the real life, R-27EM and R-27AE is a development from the R-27ER, which EM use a SARH guidence better against the sea-level missile target and the AE use a ARH guidence to improve the R-27 family.

 

They are both said in service in 1990 , but actually no prove of that, I think they may be the abandon project. R-77 has take the place of R-27AE.

 

Yup :)

 

And also in the real world we even not seen much pictures show R-27ERs are in combat service, usually R-27ER/ET are placed on ground at the AIR SHOW.

 

You cannot compare ER/ET situation to EM/AE.

 

ER/ET is a later development of the R-27 family and therefore hadn't been in production as long as the R/T when the Soviet Union collapsed. Since they are produced in Ukraine and Russia doesn't import weapons/-components from abroad, the explanation would be that Russia simply doesn't have many R-27ER/ET missiles(or extended propulsion sections to form them) available.

 

Many pictures still show that the mostly used R-27 in current day is R-27R1 both in Russia and China

 

Well R-27R1 only in China ;) ......the added "1" bit denotes an export item.

 

 

But if we put this into FC2, the consequence will be........:doh:

 

Again I think there is a big difference between depicting a weapon that never made into operational condition/service and a weapon that did but is in short supply :) .

[Alfa]

Much lighter weight, Lower speed , make the same G limited R1 version much more maneuverable than the ER.

 

"Much lighter weight"? ;)

 

The R-27 is a modular concept in which different versions can be assembled by combining 3 different types of guidance sections and two types of propulsion sections with a common "autopilot" section. Since the R-27R and -ER use the same guidance section(with 9B1101k SARH seeker) and the autopilot section is common to all version, the only difference between an R-27R and an R-27ER is the propulsion section - meaning that the weight difference is entirely down to this.

 

So while there is a significant difference in launch weight(some 100 kg), the motor will have burned away most of this difference by the time the missile reaches final stage of engagment......i.e. when it actually needs agility :) .

 

Also it is said that ER's target is those maneuving under 5G guys

 

I don't know where this is said foxwxl - the manufacturer claims exactly the same target g-load of 8 for both the short- and long-burn versions.

 

Besides, if you look at the engagment ranges stated by the manufacturer...

 

Launch range, km: against fighter-type targets:

 

R-27R1: 50 - 60

 

R-27ER1: 60 - 62.5

 

- against other targets

 

R-27R1: up to 75

 

R-27ER1: up to 100 (90)

 

( http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/503/527/ )

 

....you can see that there isn't much difference in launch range against a fighter type target, while it is quite significant for "other" types.

 

So I think the notion of the ER being "better for bombers" due to lower agility might be down to a simple misinterpretation.....i.e. not due to difference in agility but simply because the range advantage is most pronounced against large non-manouvering targets.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Alfa

[Wilde]

Could it be you boosted the F-15 too much? I ran a couple of Ai-vs-AI missions today, cannons only, expert skill. The F-15 wins almost all the time because it outturns every other bird easily. Even when I put the F-15 in the worse position to start with. Only when I made Migs and Sukhojs significantly lighter they could actually keep up with the F-15's turning capability. Why did you do that?

[GGTharos]

The AI isn't the smartest around, and the F-15 has all the energy advantage in the world so yes, if it goes combat speed and the bandit goes to its own combat speed, the f-15 can out-turn it.

 

The fact that the F-15 wins when it has a worse position says more about the AI than it does about the adjustments.

 

FYI the aircraft were adjusted individually by matching their parameters to RL charts.

Edited March 27, 2010 by GGTharos

[Wilde]

The AI goes well below 400 knots if you let them start close enough. I don't think the F-15 out-turns a Su or Mig in this area really. In reality I would expect an Eagle driver to try keep his speed at 450+ knots so he got a chance. As you say, he'd want to keep his energy up. Smells a bit fishy here.

 

But as far as I can tell the missiles are a lot better now. So that's a good one.

[GGTharos]

Dogfights get slower and lower as they mature.

No eagle pilot will stay at 450 if he sticks with a fight.

[RedTiger]

The AI goes well below 400 knots if you let them start close enough. I don't think the F-15 out-turns a Su or Mig in this area really. In reality I would expect an Eagle driver to try keep his speed at 450+ knots so he got a chance. As you say, he'd want to keep his energy up. Smells a bit fishy here.

 

But as far as I can tell the missiles are a lot better now. So that's a good one.

 

First off...as GG said, the AI isn't the sharpest crayon in the box. Don't take that the wrong way, this is coming from someone who only plays singleplayer. I do like the improvements in how they evade missiles, but there haven't been any changes (that I can tell) to their dogfight capability. They're still fairly bad at it.

 

That being said, the improvements to the F-15C do matter and are very noticeable. The engines are now VERY powerful in comparison to the other jets. In fact, it feels like the MiG-29 and F-15 swapped something from old FC. You can maintain 400+ knots in a turn now seemingly indefinitely if want to. You have smash to spare.

[Kuky]

I find today there were few guys flying that same 10m thing... they were evading missiles pretty good, one that was in a striker when I locked at about 10km tail chase he started warping non stop (and I haven't noticed this with anyone yet) as soon as I turned off my radar and kept EOS lock he stopped warping... naturally I waited till I got close and took him out with an ET... sadly I have to say I am suspicions about how he got to warp like that as there were no print screen message and the moment I turned off radar he stopped warping... coincidence? we'll see if it becomes more common as I was very happy that for the first day I saw no warp what so ever so I hope this was a glitch...

 

A side question, is there any way that people can be using RAM data hack to misreport their position or make them selves lag/warp in FC2.0?

[*Rage*]

A side question, is there any way that people can be using RAM data hack to misreport their position or make them selves lag/warp in FC2.0?

 

I dont even know what that means but why would someone go to that length??