Next DCS (US) Fixed Wing Aircraft Wish List

[Frostiken]

I don't really see all these limitations being valid for the F-14D, apart from the fact that its weapon loadout options are limited since it was politically targeted for termination from the very beginning..

 

Isn't the biggest obstacle to an F-14 the segregation between cockpits? I was under the impression that you just couldn't do many things without being in the right seat.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Frostiken

[GGTharos]

No, the biggest obstacle is the lack of SMEs.

[Dudikoff]

Isn't the biggest obstacle to an F-14 the segregation between cockpits?

 

Well, the same goes for the F-15E, then, but if they've really decided to model it, they would also add the necessary code support for the second cockpit (and the A/G radar code, etc.).

Edited March 30, 2012 by Dudikoff

[Jona33]

Well, the same goes for the F-15E, then, but if they've really decided to model it, they would also add the necessary code support for the second cockpit (and the A/G radar code, etc.).

 

I think Frostiken meant that with the F-15E most functions can be done by either seat. The F-14 was very separated. Only the pilot had flight controls, only the RIO could control the radar. (AFAIK)

[Dudikoff]

I think Frostiken meant that with the F-15E most functions can be done by either seat. The F-14 was very separated. Only the pilot had flight controls, only the RIO could control the radar. (AFAIK)

 

Possibly, but maybe the differences aren't that great in practice - I'd guess that the WSO normally handles most if not all of the A/G operations (radar, FLIR, weapons lock, etc) similarly to how the RIO had handled the A/A (and A/G) in the Tomcat.

 

Regardless of that, I really don't see what significant difference this separation makes in programming the second cockpit controls besides extra work for the Tomcat for the displays and controls (as the F-15E MFD pages are identical in content between the pilot and WSO, IIRC).

 

Technically all of the F-15's kills are 'Turkey shoot engagements' ... all that shows is that it was just that superior. As for the Iranian combat record, being as sketchy as it is, it's just that ... sketchy and mostly meaningless, unfortunately.

 

Well, it was certainly superior to all the aircraft it fought against, but to be honest, it never faced any half decent and organized opposition (not referring to just the airplanes here).

 

Regarding the combat record, I don't see how the Iranian claims are completely meaningless as the plane was obviously quite a menace to the Iraqi planes based on the available sources, it's just that the exact number of kills and losses are uncertain.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Dudikoff

[GGTharos]

Regardless of that, I really don't see what difference it makes in programming the second cockpit controls except maybe some extra work for the Tomcat (as the F-15E MFD pages are identical in content between the pilot and WSO, IIRC).

 

It's not the functionality in that pit that's the problem, it's having a second pit - I mean, if you want to specify what the actual challenge is. If you're not on a directly connected LAN, a multi-seat aircraft becomes a challenge ... what the person who's 'not driving' sees is very sensitive to his ping to the server, and his driver's ping to the server.

 

 

Well, it was certainly superior to all the aircraft it fought against, but to be honest, it never faced any half decent and organized opposition (not referring to just the airplanes here).

 

It did, actually, as long as we're going with the metric of 'half decent'. The Iraqis may not have been starts of aerial combat, but they definitely appeared to apply section tactics and specific tactics to counter western radar.

 

Regarding the combat record, I don't see how the Iranian claims are completely meaningless as the plane was obviously quite a menace to the Iraqi planes based on the available sources, it's just that the exact number of kills and losses are uncertain.

 

I looked at that record only briefly, and a long time ago, and as I recall there were only a couple of confirmed kills. That's why the Iranian combat record is meainingless - it's just too fuzzy. It certainly makes sense that MiG-21's wouldn't 'tango' with a tomcat, since they're completely outmatched in BVR - but there's tactics to deal with that sort of thing as well, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. The problem (IMHO) is that the Iranian account just appears to be more emotional than factual.

[Dudikoff]

It's not the functionality in that pit that's the problem, it's having a second pit - I mean, if you want to specify what the actual challenge is. If you're not on a directly connected LAN, a multi-seat aircraft becomes a challenge ... what the person who's 'not driving' sees is very sensitive to his ping to the server, and his driver's ping to the server.

 

You bring some valid points, but the topic was the influence of having the non-piloting RIO cockpit of the F-14D vs. the WSO one in F-15E.

 

It did, actually, as long as we're going with the metric of 'half decent'. The Iraqis may not have been starts of aerial combat, but they definitely appeared to apply section tactics and specific tactics to counter western radar.

 

Yeah, but after the initial barrage of cruise missiles and F-117 strikes, they were practically blind and their air defense network system ceased to exist. Not that their air force was anything to write home about in the first place as they couldn't handle the Iranian air force some years before (though, not that surprising, considering the investments they made there and the amount of U.S. support and training before the revolution).

 

I looked at that record only briefly, and a long time ago, and as I recall there were only a couple of confirmed kills. That's why the Iranian combat record is meainingless - it's just too fuzzy.

 

Never got my hands on the Tom Cooper's book, but I'm sure it mentioned more than a few kills. I'm not really sure how those kills can really be confirmed since neither side was actually a democracy so the had an obligation to publish their losses.

[jp203000]

All evidents pointed out it is the single seat FA-18C , it's a waste of time you guys talking about F14 or F15E those double seats plane.

[GGTharos]

No, it didn't. There's really nothing out there that'll tell you what the DCS jet is.

 

All evidents pointed out

[Demongornot]

But why ED make so many mystery about what will be the next DCS aircraft ?

ED have nothing to win to make us wait like that, just boring and make impatient us, its useless to wait...

People who have the possibility can directly begin to create home cockpit or preparing hardware for the next aircraft, people can already begin to study doc from the real aircraft (like i have only for curiosity begin to read information about the Hornet)...

 

Maybe ED have theirs own reason for don't told us what it will be (i don't understand what can be this reason) but why not announced an announcement, like say :

"In 3 month we will release the trailer and official screenshots of the next official DCS Fixed wing US Aircraft."

Or something like that, but not lest us wait without any idea of how many time we will wait, imagine if we will wait for 5 more month for a little information...

A lot of people just will begin to be mad about it, and announced if faster can permit to everyone to begin to create addons like procedure mission, aircraft advanced possibility and a lot of other things who will completed the default mission create by ED...

 

And private company can too begin to create a joystick or panel instrument like the hotas warthog but more advanced, imagine for example if the next is an F/A-18, several enterprise can begin to create various reproduction of the real, certain will be cheap and other more advanced than the hotas warthog with for example possibility for the game to controlling the throttle position, same for rudder or a lot of thing...

 

I see a lot of reason for announced faster than possible what will be the next aircraft and i don't see any reason for don't announced it...

[Booger]

All evidence points to a US fixed wing jet.

 

Everything else is just a scotoma.

[Booger]

...imagine if we will wait for 5 more month for a little information...

 

Black Shark was released in April 2009

Warthog was released in February 2011, 22 months after Black Shark.

 

Today is March (let's say April) 2012, 14 months after Warthog.

 

All of this doesn't include all the intermediate work/releases done between projects. There is certainly a lot more going on right now compared to the months between BS1 release & WH.

 

By my math, based on past (general) developmental tempo, you have 8+ more months before you can raise hell.

[jp203000]

I want ThrustMaster HOTAS mustang . No company will make joystick for p51 , so ED told us.

Perhaps TM is busy designing TM hornet .

[jp203000]

Black Shark was released in April 2009

Warthog was released in February 2011, 22 months after Black Shark.

 

Today is March (let's say April) 2012, 14 months after Warthog.

 

All of this doesn't include all the intermediate work/releases done between projects. There is certainly a lot more going on right now compared to the months between BS1 release & WH.

 

By my math, based on past (general) developmental tempo, you have 8+ more months before you can raise hell.

How long did you know DCS warthog was going to be the second DCS aircraft after blackshark released?

[GGTharos]

None of your business. :)

 

But why ED make so many mystery about what will be the next DCS aircraft ?

[GGTharos]

Right, it doesn't include, for example, the release of FC2 and the required patcing of BS1 to make them compatible, and both required significant work.

 

Assuming that we're counting all products released by ED, then to date we have BS1, BS2, A-10C, and FC2. If all additional releases that have been announced happen this year (maybe, maybe not. We'll see) then you will also have CA, P-51 and FC3 to add to the mix. If you consider all of those things since BS1 release, then we have, what ... 42/6 ... 7mo/release ;)

 

(Creative statistics are always fun).

 

Black Shark was released in April 2009

Warthog was released in February 2011, 22 months after Black Shark.

 

Today is March (let's say April) 2012, 14 months after Warthog.

 

All of this doesn't include all the intermediate work/releases done between projects. There is certainly a lot more going on right now compared to the months between BS1 release & WH.

 

By my math, based on past (general) developmental tempo, you have 8+ more months before you can raise hell.

[Booger]

How long did you know DCS warthog was going to be the second DCS aircraft after blackshark released?

 

Tomato tomatoe, they've already made it clear that playing secret squirrel is their approach in regards to release info. It could be based on a ton of different reasons. Hell, they could be hush while in contract with Thrustmaster. You & I will probably never know & in the end, it doesn't really matter at this point. Even though it's been 14 months, it's still quite early based on their past developmental timeline.

 

Don't forget that an A-10 patch as well as FC3 is in the works as well.

 

Folks can bitch, moan, groan, complain, etc. In the end people will just get wrinkles/gray hair and ED will still remain lip-zipped.

 

It is what it is, but it's not the only high(ish)-fidelity sim available. Your call.

 

For what it's worth, based on that same timeline we've already passed the half-way mark at least :D

Edited March 30, 2012 by Booger

[EtherealN]

And private company can too begin to create a joystick or panel instrument [...]

 

If ED wants to have co-ordinated peripheral development it's not like they'd handle this through public announcements, you know. They'd pick up the phone, set up a meeting with a rep from Saitek or TM or CH or whatever, and then pen a contract. ;)

[Demongornot]

If ED wants to have co-ordinated peripheral development it's not like they'd handle this through public announcements, you know. They'd pick up the phone, set up a meeting with a rep from Saitek or TM or CH or whatever, and then pen a contract. ;)

 

Yes i know that but more enterprise that ED will maybe not inform can create more stuff...

 

 

 

If the next aircraft its a dual seat i think we will see it a lot of time :

http://aviationhumor.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/OutOfFlares.jpg

 

Out of flare and IR missile inbound, how to avoid explosion :

Tutorial : make sure your cockpit are in the direct trajectory of the missile, turn your ejection seat off, pull the ejection handle and watch your copilot save your live.... :D

[Booger]

If ED wants to have co-ordinated peripheral development it's not like they'd handle this through public announcements, you know. They'd pick up the phone, set up a meeting with a rep from Saitek or TM or CH or whatever, and then pen a contract.

Exactly ;)

 

Yes i know that but more enterprise that ED will maybe not inform can create more stuff...

 

An agreement with a company such as TM/Saitek/CH/whatever would be NOT to give advanced notice to their competitors. Basically, they give ED some $$$ in order to find out the next aircraft & develop a HOTAS. In turn, ED remains silent until ___ point.

 

Nothing personal, it's just business.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Booger

[EtherealN]

Yes i know that but more enterprise that ED will maybe not inform can create more stuff...

 

And ED can set up meetings with more than one person. :)

 

If you want an example of the horrible damage secrecy does to a business model, look at Apple. Oh... wait... :D

[Booger]

If you want an example of the horrible damage secrecy does to a business model, look at Apple.

 

The irony of this comment being made (by someone with "ED" in his title no less) in this particular topic is overwhelmingly humorous. Although I do get your point, the "surface value" is a knee-slapper.

 

Bravo sir.

 

+1 for cracking me the hell up

 

ETA: No joy on rep, already hit you recently.

[Frostiken]

Possibly, but maybe the differences aren't that great in practice - I'd guess that the WSO normally handles most if not all of the A/G operations (radar, FLIR, weapons lock, etc) similarly to how the RIO had handled the A/A (and A/G) in the Tomcat.

 

Regardless of that, I really don't see what significant difference this separation makes in programming the second cockpit controls besides extra work for the Tomcat for the displays and controls (as the F-15E MFD pages are identical in content between the pilot and WSO, IIRC).

 

Because the F-15E can still function by allowing the players to hot-swap - this is how Janes did it in 1998 and it worked like a peach. It's unfeasible to swap seats back and forth in an F-14, especially given its primary air/air role.

 

Stick your SIT display on the MPCD, A/A radar on left, TPod on the right, and you really won't have too many issues performing a basic sortie from the front cockpit of an F-15E, with the possible exception that you have to memorize some extremely confusing HOTAS. Seriously, if you're having problem with the A-10, your mind will break when you see the control list for the F-15E!

[OutOnTheOP]

re:

 

Absolutely kickass video... the choice of soundtrack and the editing work is positively top-drawer.

 

That said, Frosty, unless you can now see radio waves, I don't think you can fairly say the aircraft in the video are actually aren't accomplishing anything- from my viewing, about half of the footage was Growlers. They might have been jamming the living bejeezus out of everything in the hemisphere, we'll never know (unless you can teach us the trick to visualizing EM emissions, anyhow)!

 

It's also the most realistic: Notice that none of the F/A-18s in that video dropped any ordnance or, well, accomplished anything :D

Edited March 30, 2012 by OutOnTheOP

[Scoggs]

re:

 

Absolutely kickass video... the choice of soundtrack and the editing work is positively top-drawer.

 

That said, Frosty, unless you can now see radio waves, I don't think you can fairly say the aircraft in the video are actually aren't accomplishing anything- from my viewing, about half of the footage was Growlers. They might have been jamming the living bejeezus out of everything in the hemisphere, we'll never know (unless you can teach us the trick to visualizing EM emissions, anyhow)!

 

I wouldn't bother with him, he just hates F/A-18's with a passion for whatever reason.