FC2.0 Gun

[3Sqn_TomAce]

Is there anything that can be done in a future patch to give the server host the ability to dumb down the gun?

 

Though fun as hell to use it's way to deadly, 95% of oblique shots kill now and that makes BFM no fun in FC2.0

[EtherealN]

Techincally you should be able to edit the gun in \Config\Weapons\Shell_Table.lua, looks like this:

 

shell("2A42_30_HE", _("2A42_30_HE"), {
 model_name    = "tracer_bullet_yellow",
 v0        = 980.0,
 Dv0   = 0.0081,
 Da0     = 0.0005,
 Da1     = 0.0,
 mass      = 0.390,
 round_mass = 0.98,
 explosive     = 0.0720,
 life_time     = 9,
 caliber     = 30.0,
 s         = 0.0,
 j         = 0.0,
 l         = 0.0,
 charTime    = 0,
 cx        = {0.7,0.70,0.25,0.236,2.31},
 k1        = 6.0e-09,
 tracer_off    = 9,
 scale_tracer  = 1,

 name = "30mm HE",
});

 

You would have to do this for each gun type since they use different ammunition, but this of course has the advantage of avoiding a broad-stroke approach that has undesired consequences.

 

However, do note that this will cause issues with integrity checks - everyone on your server would have to have the same version of that file as your server does. You could also try including the file in the .miz files your server has (.miz is a regular zip archive, basically, so you can open and edit with 7zip), but I am not positive that this works. Might be worth a try though.

 

As for being too deadly, do you mean from a realism standpoint or simply gameplay standpoint? (I'd personally contest both for various reasons, but granted the second is a point of personal preferences.)

Edited April 12, 2010 by EtherealN

[3Sqn_Sven]

Thanks for the info Entherealn. We've been finding the gun to be a bit crazy, you just point in the general direction and shoot and it takes the enemy apart. Not much skill required. I kind of feel like Topper Harley in Hot Shots 2 - just throwing bullets at the baddies kills them.

[ClearDark]

The current gun is truer to real life than what It used to be. Why changing it?

[3Sqn_TomAce]

Thanks for the suggestion EtherealN.

 

I can't really comment on realism as I've not had the view of gun ballistics in the real world but for me - gameplay - as there's nothing better then making it to a merge and then BFMing the fight and acutally having a chance to survive if you gun jink in the defensive. Now in FC2.0 there's not much chance of that.

[EtherealN]

Well, it is a relatively inaccurate type of weapon that launches a discusting amount of rounds, and the inaccuracy of it gives it some shotgun-like characteristics. The other day GG got me with no less than 71 hits from the F15 gun during some BFM, that's deadly as hell. :P

 

Personally I'd say the skill lies in maneuvering to get the shot itself - or for that matter maneuvering to deny the shot to the opponent.

 

But again, as I said, that's personal preferences and I don't want to be combative. Hope the information there helps - and if it works to just include the file in the .miz, please let me know, since I have not tried this myself. (My internet connection at home goes through the company office and I don't have the liberty to set that network up in such a way that allows me to host online games.) Do note that I am not sure if you have to have a folder tree inside the .miz for this - I'm just hoping it works the same way as inclusion of options settings.

Edited April 12, 2010 by EtherealN

[3Sqn_TomAce]

Agree with you there Ether.

 

If you read any dogfight gun or BFM manual it tells you to gun be in lead, be in range, and be in plane. With the gun as deadly as it is now you don't bother with the last rule "be in plane" as you just go for nose position and cut the circle ASAP and kill (too easily). so IMOP it changes the fundamentals of BFM gunzo.

 

Granted everyone will have their own opinion, we'll let you know how the test works out.

[ClearDark]

I was not trying to be combative here either. I'm an avid fan of Gunzo fights and those being more than 70% of my gametime on FC2.0

 

I am very pleased with the new cannon. If you look at some Vulcan test videos on youtube you will see that the spread it has in FC2.0 is quite realistic. I believe the spread is there to inflict as much damage as possible on a larger area.

 

For me it was quite unrealistic when the 1.12 guns shot at a straight line like a laser beam demanding you to put the pixel of the piper on the jet or else you miss all your shots.

 

Like Ether said it's about getting into position for a gunshot that makes the difference and magic in BFM. But everyone with their own preferences and those are respected regardless. I was just curious to why you would want that changed :)

[Moa]

Huh? As we all know the M61 has a rate of 6000-6600 rpm (100 rounds/sec) of 20 mm HE shells. If one of them touches your aircraft it should be 'curtains'. Yes it makes dogfights short and nasty, this is as it should be. The change is far more realistic.

 

Speaking of realism, my understanding is while US pilots are trained in BFM they try *not* to close to this range, prefering instead to use the advantage of superior radar and missiles at an extended distance. Once in close the US advantages disappear and the engagement becomes more of a lottery.

I have seen a pilot describe this as "running away like the girls they are" once the bandits get to the BVR/WVR boundary.

[A.S]

agreed, even though its better then before (starwars zoom spraying) ...the shells are still really "OMG" ...

Even though high-explosive shells and pretty nasty rounds, little less or more realistic damages would really make it more interesting...and exciting.

"what if i miss" ..."what if i hit but not good enough" ..."when can i risk it or spend it" ...."the fight is only over if...." .....the questions you always should have in BFM .... i think, the suggestions made by the gents above have really a point ! :thumbup:

 

compare with guns in IL-2 or F4AF (even though il2 is different calibers of guns) .....those, who fly both sims..may instantly understand what i was trying to say.

Edited April 12, 2010 by A.S

[3Sqn_TomAce]

AS explained it better then I did, so I hope others read and understand what we are talking about a little more.

[71st_Mastiff]

yes you should leave it as is. Go fly IL2 and try to hit a plane, dog fight thats real DF, as close to Df-ing as you can get. I believe the current guns in FC2 is great short and sweet you didn't have a computer leading this good in WWII. So I would say thats this is a real comparison.. Theres a youtube video thats shows what those 30mm cannon shells can do to a wing.

 

[ZaltysZ]

compare with guns in IL-2 or F4AF (even though il2 is different calibers of guns) .....those, who fly both sims..may instantly understand what i was trying to say.

 

In IL2 you don't have fire computer which helps to determine where you should aim (excluding primitive gyro sight of P51).

 

In F4 you have aiming help, however you almost don't have a rudder at little bit higher speeds and that thing forces you to work for good position before shooting. In contrast, planes in LockOn and IL2 have "useful" rudders and allows for way easier correction of aim point. I always had a feeling that rudders for SFM planes are too good in LockOn.

 

Also, in F4 fire computer lags and lies more. In LockOn it is deadly precise. :cry:

[GGTharos]

Watch after 35 sec:

 

I had much better quality of this particular gun engagement somewhere; and yeah, it's just like that. Pull trigger, target explodes - the gun is that powerful.

[RedTiger]

Agree with you there Ether.

 

If you read any dogfight gun or BFM manual it tells you to gun be in lead, be in range, and be in plane. With the gun as deadly as it is now you don't bother with the last rule "be in plane" as you just go for nose position and cut the circle ASAP and kill (too easily). so IMOP it changes the fundamentals of BFM gunzo.

 

Granted everyone will have their own opinion, we'll let you know how the test works out.

 

No one says you can't shoot your enemy in the face head-on and no one says you can't attempt a snapshot kill. If by 'in-plane' you meant in the saddle and out of plane, that is working as intended. You won't hit much of anything in that case. :)

 

If you actually decide to turn at the merge and start a dogfight, you have to put up what's coming to you. The guns are fine, IMO. In reality, these dogfights would actually be even more deadly if the R-73 actually had thrust vectoring and the sim forced you to premptively use flares against heaters. The gun would be a secondary worry.

 

If you're doing a gunzo tournament or practice, my suggestion is to do a three second pipper on target "guns guns guns" without pulling the trigger and consider that a kill.

[A.S]

Thx for the lecture how ww2 guns work compared to modern ones.

But allow me to say, that im VERY well aware of both.....and some hollywood-youtube based opinions on the matter wont change the point here neither.

 

They guys who requested that, have a good point ! A very good one. The point is not the calculation of how much damage the shells would do after impact...but

that is not easy at all to hit a jet that hard. Think about it.

But nevertheless, gundefense (in all his variants) is better executeable in 2.0 then in 1.12....just my humble opinion.

Edited April 12, 2010 by A.S

[Bucic]

Thx for the lecture how ww2 guns work compared to modern ones.

But allow me to say, that im VERY well aware of both.....and some hollywood-youtube based opinions on the matter wont change the point here neither.

 

They guys who requested that, have a good point ! A very good one.

 

Watch after 35 sec:

 

I had much better quality of this particular gun engagement somewhere; and yeah, it's just like that. Pull trigger, target explodes - the gun is that powerful.

 

So, from what Hollywood movie is the scene GG pointed from?

[GGTharos]

You tell me. From what holywood movie is that HUD footage from?

 

While at it:

 

 

Training for high-aspect snapshots.

 

So, from what Hollywood movie is the scene GG pointed from?

[A.S]

You tell me. From what holywood movie is that HUD footage from?

 

While at it:

 

 

Training for high-aspect snapshots.

 

GG, just to make one thing clear here for once and forever.

 

Are you are real pilot with combat expirience? NO! you are not!

Am i ? no im not either !

 

So i assume your knowledge here is based on all your flightsimexpirience, and your video watchings.

Now, how many sims have you been flying and how many videos have you been watching??

How many sims i fly - and that extensive, especially guns - is known, and i hardly doubt, that you have investigated on that topic as much as i did ( in vidoes and etc).

 

In respect.

[GGTharos]

So explain why what is happening isn't working for you. In my limited experience with FC2 guns, you can get partial damage instead of destruction if your jink is good - or none, if you can avoid being in the hud or if you can sploil the shot.

 

But you seem to be asking for a guarantee that nothing will happen to you in high aspect BFM. Why? It is a fact that air forces train for HABFM for the simple reason that this is the only type of shot they might get in some situations or against certain opponents.

 

They certainly seem to think it is useful enough to teach and train, though how useful I wouldn't be able to tell you.

[A.S]

Noone here is talking about high aspect shots or situations. High aspect surely is part of every BFM school, may it be the defense, the shot or the "oh sh##, how i ended in that situation" question..hehe. But thats not the topic here.

Personally i have no issues or complains....i deal with what i got (2.0) but i say, that the guys have a point in what they actually intend to express.

 

Rewerse question: on what facts are the shell velocities, the rounds/second, and impact damage effects on a airframe and the diffusion after certain range based on. Maybe you can lighten the question from the other side? The guns are different then in 1.12 as everyone can see. In 1.12 they were sold as "realistic" now we have a new "realistic" as you can surely remember. Now please tell us, what facts made them NOW more more realistic=?

Edited April 12, 2010 by A.S

[ClearDark]

GG, just to make one thing clear here for once and forever.

 

Are you are real pilot with combat expirience? NO! you are not!

Am i ? no im not either !

 

So i assume your knowledge here is based on all your flightsimexpirience, and your video watchings.

Now, how many sims have you been flying and how many videos have you been watching??

How many sims i fly - and that extensive, especially guns - is known, and i hardly doubt, that you have investigated on that topic as much as i did ( in vidoes and etc).

 

In respect.

 

I know a real pilot from the IAF 133rd Twin Tail F-15D squadron. The FC2 Vulcan is more true to real life than 1.12 one.

 

Is that good enough for you?

[GGTharos]

AS: Ballistic trajectory, rate of fire, dispersal.

[A.S]

AS: Ballistic trajectory, rate of fire, dispersal.

 

and you think, its accurate modeled? ...i acutally asked the same thing, but with "what tells us, its right made"

[A.S]

I know a real pilot from the IAF 133rd Twin Tail F-15D squadron. The FC2 Vulcan is more true to real life than 1.12 one.

 

Is that good enough for you?

 

its better then before ...yes....and oh... "i know real pilot" does not work with me :smilewink: ...