Does Central Position Trimmer Mode = HelicopterTrimmerMethod?

[Wazoo]

I'm trying to get my Falcon 4 buddy going on BS but he's having a hell of a time with the cyclic locking up after trimming.

 

We've gone through the whole dead-zone modifying thing, but still no joy. Basically I'm trying to isolate variables right now to see what the problem is.

 

But first, I'd like to get him back to the old way of trimming to see if that solves the lockup problem. I am assuming that the original trim logic did not rely at all on re-centering, but strictly on time-lapse.... thus if you didn't re-center within the .5 seconds allotted, tough luck. The new "center" for you stick is where ever you are holding it after .5 seconds.... is this right??

 

Anyway... after reading the 1.01c Readme, it says that the HelicopterTrimmerMethod variable in the FOoptions.lua file is the one that sets the trim logic. However, even in my FOoptions.lua file, that variable does not exist.

 

When I check the Central Position Trimmer Mode (assuming that reverts the sim to the old trimmer logic), the variable still doesn't appear in that file.

 

Am I going about this in the correct manner?

[EtherealN]

The old method (there's a checkbox in the options screen for selecting which one your prefer) places the new center at wherever you had the cyclic AND RUDDER when you release the button, and then gives you a time period to return your cyclic. This was a problem for some people, since this could cause double inputs after that time period if they were "too slow", leading either to some oscillations which are mainly just annoying but potentially also rotor disc intersection which is catastrophic.

 

To change - just go to the options screen in-game.

 

Note that if you want to use that method with an FFB stick you may need to change the ForceFeedbackEnabled variable in Producer.cfg to false.

 

"Central Position" mode is the one that waits for you to center your stick AND RUDDER. Flaky pots may cause this to simply never happen - the stick ends up sending deflection signals to the computer even though it is physically centered. In that case the options really are to either give it deadzones, use the old method, or replace the stick since it will likely die soon anyhow. (I recently replaced my Cyborg with an x52 for that reason.)

Edited April 14, 2010 by EtherealN

[Wazoo]

The old method (there's a checkbox in the options screen for selecting which one your prefer) places the new center at wherever you had the cyclic AND RUDDER when you release the button, and then gives you a time period to return your cyclic. This was a problem for some people, since this could cause double inputs after that time period if they were "too slow", leading either to some oscillations which are mainly just annoying but potentially also rotor disc intersection which is catastrophic.

 

To change - just go to the options screen in-game.

 

Note that if you want to use that method with an FFB stick you may need to change the ForceFeedbackEnabled variable in Producer.cfg to false.

 

"Central Position" mode is the one that waits for you to center your stick AND RUDDER. Flaky pots may cause this to simply never happen - the stick ends up sending deflection signals to the computer even though it is physically centered. In that case the options really are to either give it deadzones, use the old method, or replace the stick since it will likely die soon anyhow. (I recently replaced my Cyborg with an x52 for that reason.)

 

So if I understand you correctly, checking the box in the options menu enables the NEW trimmer logic... and unchecking it enables the old. But what about the variable HelicopterTrimmerMethod? Where does that come in?

 

He's using a pretty new CH Products HOTAS (Flightstick Pro, Pro Throttle, Pro Rudders), so I doubt it is a mechanical issue. Oddly... when cyclic lockup occurs, he cannot bank left or right nor pitch forward... but pitching *back* does work... and returns cyclic control.

[EtherealN]

Unsure about that variable. I've never had to tinker with it.

 

It sounds to me like the stick sends a "center command" with the stick deflected back.

[Wazoo]

Unsure about that variable. I've never had to tinker with it.

 

It sounds to me like the stick sends a "center command" with the stick deflected back.

 

I thought so too.... but if that were true, would not switching to the original trim logic solve this problem as re-center is not part of the trimmer logic? Put another way... if using the old logic, wouldn't the cyclic respond after .5 seconds in any direction even if it was not properly re-centered?

[Wazoo]

Ok... I must be missing something here.

 

I decided to experiment with the Central Position Trimmer Mode option by flying with it checked and then unchecked to see the difference.

 

Whelp... I can't see ANY difference.

 

For example, with it checked, I assume based on the discussion above that it is using the new trimmer logic. To test it, I get in cockpit, pitch the cyclic forward about 30 degrees and then trim and hold the stick in the exact same position without re-centering. As expected, I have complete cyclic lockout until I return the cyclic to center.

 

So I exit the mission, go to options, and uncheck the box assuming this will implement the old trimmer logic. I go back into the simulator and do the exact same thing.

 

Result: The exact same; i.e. cyclic lockout until re-center of stick.

 

Based upon my understanding of the two different logics, the older one should allow the cyclic to continue movement even though I never re-center the stick.

 

What am I missing here?? :joystick:

[Distiler]

The trim method is stored in \Ka-50\BlackShark\data\scripts\options.lua in the line ["altTrimmingMethod"] = true (or false) check if it's changing when you change it in options/gameplay UI.

 

If it's not changing:

 

Have you edited some .lua file with regular notepad? (must use notepad++ or face probably corruption)

Have you installed DCS in /program files? (in Vista and W7 this folder security features makes really weird things -> advised to install outside, even outside whole C: )

 

 

Also, if you have some other joystick or wheel plugged it may interference.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Distiler

[Wazoo]

The trim method is stored in \Ka-50\BlackShark\data\scripts\options.lua in the line ["altTrimmingMethod"] = true (or false) check if it's changing when you change it in options/gameplay UI.

 

If it's not changing:

 

Have you edited some .lua file with regular notepad? (must use notepad++ or face probably corruption)

Have you installed DCS in /program files? (in Vista and W7 this folder security features makes really weird things -> advised to install outside, even outside whole C: )

 

 

Also, if you have some other joystick or wheel plugged it may interference.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I checked and the option is changing correctly from True to False depending on the option set in the game..... but the behavior is the same.

 

Am I correct in my description above on how it *should* behave in the original trim logic?

 

Oh.. and BTW... is True for the old logic or is it false?

[Distiler]

Thanks for the info.

 

I checked and the option is changing correctly from True to False depending on the option set in the game..... but the behavior is the same.

 

Am I correct in my description above on how it *should* behave in the original trim logic?

 

Oh.. and BTW... is True for the old logic or is it false?

 

-Yes you're correct.

 

-True is new behaviour.

 

*Have you edited some .lua file with regular notepad? (must use notepad++ or face probably corruption)

*Have you installed DCS in /program files? (in Vista and W7 this folder security features makes really weird things -> advised to install outside, even outside whole C: )

*Do you have any other joystick or racing wheel plugged in?

[Wazoo]

-Yes you're correct.

 

-True is new behaviour.

 

*Have you edited some .lua file with regular notepad? (must use notepad++ or face probably corruption)

*Have you installed DCS in /program files? (in Vista and W7 this folder security features makes really weird things -> advised to install outside, even outside whole C: )

*Do you have any other joystick or racing wheel plugged in?

 

Before reading the warnings about editing Lua files, I edited FOoptions.lua with Notepad. Now I only use EditPadPro6. The file appears fine... but I guess it could be corrupt (not sure how that would present itself). Either way, would that file effect whether or not the different trim logics were being implemented?

 

DCS is installed in /Program Files... but on my gaming drive which is E: for me. I'm pretty sure Windows 7 doesn't freak out in that situation.... but the whole Administrator thing in W7 seems a bit wacky to me... :)

 

No other peripherals attached besides my CH HOTAS.

 

Luckily for me, I have almost no problems with cyclic lockout using the new logic and can fly it pretty well.... although I do, at times, get lockout at very low speeds when making very small adjustments with the cyclic. Happened last night while trying to get into an auto-hover. Had to quickly cancel all trimming, which returned control, and the quickly make sure the untrimmed helo didn't crash into the hill I was hovering near. :doh:

 

My friend, however, is another story, and he is going to reinstall into a non-C: drive directory and see if that helps.

[topdog]

If you're editing/viewing the file as your regular Windows logon user, but running the game as Administrator, that can cause you a problem. The same is true in reverse.

 

So whenever editing those files, do it at the same privilege level that you run the game at.

 

This is if your Program Files is _the_ Program Files that Windows loves to protect, if it's just a folder with the same name you created on another drive, then as you say, you wouldn't have to deal with any of Windows' oddness in that situation.

 

Personally I install the whole shebang (modman, LO:FC, blackshark, etc.) under _the_ Program Files without any issues at all, but if you're not too familiar with when exactly app registry and data virtualization takes place and on what files, it could be a pain.

Edited April 15, 2010 by topdog

[Wazoo]

If you're editing/viewing the file as your regular Windows logon user, but running the game as Administrator, that can cause you a problem. The same is true in reverse.

 

So whenever editing those files, do it at the same privilege level that you run the game at.

 

This is if your Program Files is _the_ Program Files that Windows loves to protect, if it's just a folder with the same name you created on another drive, then as you say, you wouldn't have to deal with any of Windows' oddness in that situation.

 

Personally I install the whole shebang (modman, LO:FC, blackshark, etc.) under _the_ Program Files without any issues at all, but if you're not too familiar with when exactly app registry and data virtualization takes place and on what files, it could be a pain.

 

This is an issue that has always confused me. When I installed Windows 7 Ultimate, I only created one user (me) with, what I thought to be full administrator privileges. Yet sometimes Windows tells me I need to be an administrator to do something. Confuses the crap out of me.

 

Anyways.... I do run BS as an administrator as I had problems if I did not. I did it by setting the compatibility properties of dcs.exe to admin. That solved an issue of not even being able to launch multiplayer.

[Slayer]

Just a question in regards to your setup, did you make sure you have the "use these options for all missions" button checked? Might be why you aren't seeing a difference?

 

Use right control + enter so you can see the position of your stick on the indicator to see what it's doing

 

Also I think the big difference between the 2 methods is that one holds the rudder position while the other doesn't, so if you're not using the rudder in your test you might not notice the difference?

 

Upload us a mission track and maybee someone here can help you better, there is one always generated

[topdog]

This is an issue that has always confused me. When I installed Windows 7 Ultimate, I only created one user (me) with, what I thought to be full administrator privileges. Yet sometimes Windows tells me I need to be an administrator to do something. Confuses the crap out of me.

 

Anyways.... I do run BS as an administrator as I had problems if I did not. I did it by setting the compatibility properties of dcs.exe to admin. That solved an issue of not even being able to launch multiplayer.

 

You need to make sure all the file editing you do is with a program that is also run 'as administrator' then, otherwise data virtualization is a technique that when you try to read or write a file from a protected location (such as Program Files) it sneakily does it somewhere else (your own virtualstore, a special per-user directory). But then you run the game 'as administrator' and it reads/writes from the original and true location on the disk instead so ignores your editing attempts.

 

Note this does only apply to protected locations like your OS's designated Program Files folder.

 

The thing to remember is that being the administrator only grants you one additional thing - the ability to override stuff that normal users aren't allowed to override - and it's not an automatic or permanent 'full rights' mode (like previous versions of Windows typically gave you).

 

In most cases the 'full rights' overrides are only temporary, such as for the duration of that app's run time, and then gone again, as a form of 'you can do this, but are you sure you really want to do this' protection from both yourself as well as from malware.

 

Anyway, just to be sure, right-click your desired editor's icon and Run as Administrator, then open the file you were making changes to, and see if they are still changed like you expected. If they're not, data virtualization had been kicking in, if they are, Slayer's suggestion about the 'use these options for all missions' may well be the cause.