Help Requested Engaging the AI In BVC Combat

[Nerdwing]

Hello :)

 

I'm having little luck in the F15 versus AI flown MiG29S's and Su27's. While I generally can get a kill versus them 1 on 1, its at the cost of massive amounts of missiles spent. I use the "DCAT F15" missions that came with FC2 to gauge my effectiveness.

 

I can normally get a shot off well before they do, and my missiles always follow the target perfectly up until a point. The enemy Mig will dive, beaming me and peppering chaff now and then.

 

I can evade the oncoming AA12 as well by beaming and diving, possibly Split-S'ing. AA10's as well are reasonably easy to evade.

 

My concern is that my AMRAAM's have a horrible PK ratio as they follow the MiG through its dive, then suddenly break off and fly straight into the chaff cloud.

 

I keep a lock on the MiG as best as I can, in STT mode throughout the AMRAAM's flight time. The majority of the time, my AIM120C's still lose their lock and sail into the chaff cloud.

 

I've tried this on Average and Excellent skill levels multiple times, and still having trouble maintaining anywhere near an acceptable kill ratio per missile spent. I fire at the enemy (flying at 32k feet) from a position of 38 to 40k feet.

 

What sort of missile expenditures do you folks normally achieve vs similarly capable AI fighters? I'm at less than 20% now against AI fighters in the above scenario, and looking for any advice to improve it :(

 

PS: I apologize for the jumbled post, its quite late and having trouble wording everything correctly :music_whistling:

 

EDIT: Meant BVR combat in the thread title... d'oh!

Edited April 28, 2010 by Nerdwing

[asparagin]

Hello :)

 

I'm having little luck in the F15 versus AI flown MiG29S's and Su27's. While I generally can get a kill versus them 1 on 1, its at the cost of massive amounts of missiles spent. I use the "DCAT F15" missions that came with FC2 to gauge my effectiveness.

 

I can normally get a shot off well before they do, and my missiles always follow the target perfectly up until a point. The enemy Mig will dive, beaming me and peppering chaff now and then.

 

I can evade the oncoming AA12 as well by beaming and diving, possibly Split-S'ing. AA10's as well are reasonably easy to evade.

 

My concern is that my AMRAAM's have a horrible PK ratio as they follow the MiG through its dive, then suddenly break off and fly straight into the chaff cloud.

 

I keep a lock on the MiG as best as I can, in STT mode throughout the AMRAAM's flight time. The majority of the time, my AIM120C's still lose their lock and sail into the chaff cloud.

 

I've tried this on Average and Excellent skill levels multiple times, and still having trouble maintaining anywhere near an acceptable kill ratio per missile spent. I fire at the enemy (flying at 32k feet) from a position of 38 to 40k feet.

 

What sort of missile expenditures do you folks normally achieve vs similarly capable AI fighters? I'm at less than 20% now against AI fighters in the above scenario, and looking for any advice to improve it :(

 

PS: I apologize for the jumbled post, its quite late and having trouble wording everything correctly :music_whistling:

 

EDIT: Meant BVR combat in the thread title... d'oh!

 

1. Using more than one missile for a target is a realistic approach.

2.What exactly do you do to "lock the MIG as best as you can"? You now that the AIM 120 needs your lock only during the first part of the flight, then it activates its own radar.

3. If the AI spoofs you missile it means it has the time to. If you will fire from less range, PK will grow dramatically. How to get in closer range without getting killed? Start by reading older posts. F-pole is key.

[The Beast]

Hi Nerdwing,

 

I seem to the opposite problem you do! I got a very high PK in BVR but at the 10nm range I get a very low PK. Not sure what im doing differently, I do get my locks in TEWS mode which maybe the difference. What radar mode are you in when you launch? I do believe TEWS gives no warning till the missile takes over.

[Nerdwing]

hello again :)

 

By "Lock on as best I can", I mean I engage in STT mode and maintain a lock for the duration of the missile's flight. I've tried lowering the range at which I fire the AMRAAM to at very most to be around 20 miles, and my PK has improved significantly.

 

Thank you for the advice!

[The Beast]

Try it in just TEWS mode man. Only hit lock once. That should work wonders for you

 

 

Striaght from the manual.

 

 

"TWS, when combined with the AIM-120, provides a powerful ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously. Nevertheless, the target tracking reliability is less than that of LRS and even more so than STT. Unlike STT though, a TWS launch with AIM-120 will not provide the enemy aircraft with a radar lock and launch indication. As such, the first warning the enemy pilot will likely get is when the active radar seeker of the AIM-120 goes active near the target."

Edited April 28, 2010 by The Beast

[Ven]

You need to understand your opponent. If it's Su-27, it'll launch R-27ER first as it has the longest range. But that is an SARH missile and he'll need to keep its lock on you all the way. You don't have to with AIM-120.

 

Launch a first missile in between Rmax and Rtr. This missile's chance to make the kill is less than 50%. But it will make the Flanker go defensive. By now, Flanker should've already launched R-27ER and if it goes into dive like you said, it should loose the lock on you and should miss but I would turn away just to be safe. But don't turn too much to loose the gimbals. Turn back towards him in about 10~15 seconds and launch another one at Rtr. This missile has higher chance to make the kill as the Flanker should be running low on altitude and speed evading the first missile. When in doubt, toss a 3rd missile well within Rtr.

 

Basically, keep the Flanker on defense by launching missiles in intervals. Against MiG-29 with ARH missiles, approach is slightly different. Also make sure you study the track to see what the enemy is doing and how to counter it.

[Nerdwing]

You need to understand your opponent. If it's Su-27, it'll launch R-27ER first as it has the longest range. But that is an SARH missile and he'll need to keep its lock on you all the way. You don't have to with AIM-120.

 

Launch a first missile in between Rmax and Rtr. This missile's chance to make the kill is less than 50%. But it will make the Flanker go defensive. By now, Flanker should've already launched R-27ER and if it goes into dive like you said, it should loose the lock on you and should miss but I would turn away just to be safe. But don't turn too much to loose the gimbals. Turn back towards him in about 10~15 seconds and launch another one at Rtr. This missile has higher chance to make the kill as the Flanker should be running low on altitude and speed evading the first missile. When in doubt, toss a 3rd missile well within Rtr.

 

Basically, keep the Flanker on defense by launching missiles in intervals. Against MiG-29 with ARH missiles, approach is slightly different.

 

 

Yessir, this is what I'm doing now vs Flankers and it works superbly. Seems supremely effective, and keeps me (generally :P) quite safe. Thanks alot for the tips!

 

I'm concerned however going against the MiG29S. In the mission, the MiG29S is jamming from the get-go. I can burn through eventually (and at a modesly comfortable range truth be told), but am unable to employ TWS mode against them. Is this due to the MiG presumably forgetting to turn off its jammer, and TWS not being able to acquite a jamming target?

 

To clarify, when I attempt to lock the MiG, it'll switch me over to STT mode instantly. This wont occur against the non-jamming Su27's and such.

 

In this scenario, would a long range HOJ shot be worthwhile to attempt to put the MiG on the defensive, so I can continue the engagement in a manner similar to that against the Su27?

 

And thanks again to all who suggested the F-Pole tactics. Employing them has proven vital, and extremely effective in improving my kill/loss ratio in the sim. :thumbup:

[EtherealN]

Not quite certain I recognize the difficulty in getting lock on a jamming target with TWS. In my experience there's no real difference - you either burn through or you don't. However, note that you can switch from TWS to STT through double-bugging the same target. Perhaps that's what's happening?

[The Beast]

Yessir, this is what I'm doing now vs Flankers and it works superbly. Seems supremely effective, and keeps me (generally :P) quite safe. Thanks alot for the tips!

 

I'm concerned however going against the MiG29S. In the mission, the MiG29S is jamming from the get-go. I can burn through eventually (and at a modesly comfortable range truth be told), but am unable to employ TWS mode against them. Is this due to the MiG presumably forgetting to turn off its jammer, and TWS not being able to acquite a jamming target?

 

To clarify, when I attempt to lock the MiG, it'll switch me over to STT mode instantly. This wont occur against the non-jamming Su27's and such.

 

In this scenario, would a long range HOJ shot be worthwhile to attempt to put the MiG on the defensive, so I can continue the engagement in a manner similar to that against the Su27?

 

And thanks again to all who suggested the F-Pole tactics. Employing them has proven vital, and extremely effective in improving my kill/loss ratio in the sim. :thumbup:

 

 

 

If your switching to STT mode that means HOJ burnt through. In other words your really close. HOJ is a passive radar lock much like TEWS, meaning there is no indication to the locked target until either burn through or the 120 becomes active. Burn through is 15-23 nautical miles normally. It sounds as if your way to close at the time of lock for HOJ. Try it a bit further out, also use AWACS for distance and know what a good range is for a 120 launch. HOJ is almost a hail mary shot.

[Ven]

I'm concerned however going against the MiG29S. In the mission, the MiG29S is jamming from the get-go. I can burn through eventually (and at a modesly comfortable range truth be told), but am unable to employ TWS mode against them. Is this due to the MiG presumably forgetting to turn off its jammer, and TWS not being able to acquite a jamming target?

 

To clarify, when I attempt to lock the MiG, it'll switch me over to STT mode instantly. This wont occur against the non-jamming Su27's and such.

 

In this scenario, would a long range HOJ shot be worthwhile to attempt to put the MiG on the defensive, so I can continue the engagement in a manner similar to that against the Su27

 

HOJ shot wont alert the MiG of the missile and since he doesn't know, he wont go defensive. And even when you fire missiles with TWS or STT lock, AI wont go defensive until the missile goes pitbull. You can try HOJ as hail mary shot as mentioned but against a MiG-29S, you'll most likely will have to do a missile evasion.

 

Russian jets have SPO-15 Beriosa radar warning system. It tells the pilots when the incoming missile goes pitbull and bars indicating when the missile will hit. Whereas in F15, you only get a warning tone when the missile goes pitbull.

 

So approaching MiG-29S with ECM on, I wait until burn through which should happen at around 23nm. You should already be well within Rmax at this point so launch as soon as this happens. He wont go defensive until that missile is close and he'll also launch an R-77. ARH missile. I usually use beaming tactic and launch a second missile just as with Flanker. If the missile is still on you and TEWS tells you that R-77 went active, you'll gonna have to pull a defensive maneuver. I usually do a countdown in my head to guestimate when the missile will be on my doorstep but you can also use a stop watch. Launch a 3rd as soon as I evade.

 

This works for me about 80% of the time. The 20% they evade all 3 missiles and usually turns into a close range combat. In such cases, either I get shot down or exchange missiles and both of us go down. I'm not very good at close range combat but I think this is normal as I don't think you can ever achieve 100% victory against any equal class fighter even if it's against an AI.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Ven

[GGTharos]

Russian jets have SPO-15 Beriosa radar warning system. It tells the pilots when the incoming missile goes pitbull and bars indicating when the missile will hit. Whereas in F15, you only get a warning tone when the missile goes pitbull.

 

You'll see the missile aproaching quite clearly on the RWR in the F-15. The ranging/timing capability of the beryoza is not realistic.

[Ven]

You'll see the missile aproaching quite clearly on the RWR in the F-15.

Visually or on RWR? I only get a tone on RWR when the missile goes active and doesn't show any range information?

 

The ranging/timing capability of the beryoza is not realistic.

Did you mean the ranging information of Beryoza is unreliable in FC2? Or just that it's unrealistically modeled in FC2?

[GGTharos]

Visually or on RWR? I only get a tone on RWR when the missile goes active and doesn't show any range information?

 

Look harder ;) The <M> will show up at a certain distance from center and start closing in.

 

Did you mean the ranging information of Beryoza is unreliable in FC2? Or just that it's unrealistically modeled in FC2?

 

The latter.