Ground Anti-aircraft Tactics

[thisisentchris87]

Hi, this is my first post after making the account a few months ago. :P

 

Anyway, I'm needing tips on how to deal with anti-aircraft threats to the KA-50. I've noticed that its quite aggravating dying constantly becuase I either engage to close or some little man has a RPG and shoots me down because I missed seeing him. So now I play with god mode on, when I know I'm going up against them (normally after I get shot down)

 

Eventually I learned to engage at maximum range (they can't seem to hit me) and pretty much snipe them with Vikhrs. Which doesn't really help against solders (they are small) and I don't like wasting one on him.

 

What else am I missing or what else is there.

[EtherealN]

Well, one thing with MANPADs (it's not RPG's, it's Man Portable Air Defence) is that they'll usually be hiding around close to target areas, so your best tool to not get killed by them is to just not fly near them - but how to be sure about that if you don't know where he is? Well, they'll usually be stationed near the target area - so do not overfly a target area if you can help it, even if you think you've killed everyone.

 

Also, when entering a threat area, it can help to set the countermeasure system to drop a set of flares every 5-6 seconds or so - the idea here is to have flares in the air to spoil the tone for the MANPAD so that he never gets to launch. You may have seen videos on CNN and BBC of A10's dropping flares in afghanistan and iraq, same for C130's and C5's on final in afghanistan - that doesn't mean they are actually under attack, it means they might be under attack and they just want to pre-emptively spoil the launch.

 

Thirdly - keep your head on a swivel. In a threat area you need to constantly surveill the area and avoid getting target-fixated. Ground targets will typically not disappear if you look away for a second every 5-6 seconds. This is obviously a lot easier to do if you use TrackIR, FreeTrack or Cachya. If you use mouse or (gods forbid) hatswitch to view, this will be difficult.

 

Finally - high speed. If you are moving fast (200km/h+, preferably 250km/h+) they will have a much reduced window in which to acquire, track and launch on you. This will put a more serious strain on your planning since you have to get your attack runs planned right to avoid going in and then not getting your shot on target. In this case, make sure you have scouted your egress route beforehand as well - you don't want to make a perfect run and then fly straight into a Vulcan. :P

[159th_Falcon]

 

Eventually I learned to engage at maximum range (they can't seem to hit me) and pretty much snipe them with Vikhrs. Which doesn't really help against solders (they are small) and I don't like wasting one on him.

 

1st of all, if that "wasted" Vikhr prefents you from getting shot down, it just safed your life and the helicopters one. Not exactly wasted is it?

2nd, you can encage Soldiers and ZSU24's whit your gun outside there range.

To do this use your gun in the same way as a vikr;

Select the gun

Lock target whit Skhval

Activate laser

Check LA and fire

Since bullets are not guided you can slew the Skhval to another target as soon as you have let go of the trigger.

 

Also, if the targets are moving you might want to press the Moving Target button on the lower LH panel.

If you do this the targeting computers works out where to point to gun to fire in front of the target, causing them to walk/drive into your bullets.

(only works if they dont change direction our speed)

 

Good Luck hunting.

[EtherealN]

You can also exceed engagement parameters through switching the weapon panel from auto to manual. It will then allow you to fire even if you are outside normal ranges - bit of training will teach you when this still gives you rounds-on-target. For the gun specifically the setting on auto isn't really about actual ballistic range of the rounds - it's for effective use. If you're fine with a lot of rounds missing just to get that critical one or two hits, flip to manual and engage with cannon at 3km. :)

[thisisentchris87]

Now see I couldn't remember term MANPAD. Plus I am using the hat-switch on my X52 to view :P

 

OK so summarizing what EtherealN said:

 

MANPADs like to stick around the target area.

 

Use my counter measures when entering a threat area. And from my experience I will know this when the LWR goes bonkers and enemy units.

 

I have to constantly survival my surroundings.

 

And when getting to my target I just need to plan things right and floor it to where it is.

 

@Falcon1906

 

Really I thought MANPADs had a further range than my gun, I'll have to try that. And I'm not that much of a rookie. :smartass:

[EtherealN]

Now see I couldn't remember term MANPAD. Plus I am using the hat-switch on my X52 to view :P

 

Oooh... If you have a webcam, consider getting CachYa or something. It's like 20 dollars and gets you good functionality. If money is less of an issue, get TrackIR - more expensive, but it will blow your world away. (And it should be noted that it's useable in ArmA and such as well, even in the infantry role.)

 

MANPADs like to stick around the target area.

 

Yeah - basically they have very limited range, so they need to stay close to the assets they are tasked with protecting, unless their role is to just lie in ambush along a likely ingress route.

 

Use my counter measures when entering a threat area. And from my experience I will know this when the LWR goes bonkers and enemy units.

 

I can't quite agree with this one - if your LWR is going bonkers there's something with a ranging laser measuring you up in preparation for a very nasty shot - could be anything from an Avenger getting some range info to launch at you to an MBT preparing to place a 105mm HEAT round in your face.

 

What you want to do is study the map very closely before embarking on the mission. Check for possible ingress routes and plan your flight - if you plan when you're already airborne you've lost initiative. Then take a moment and think to yourself "if I was the other guy, where would I place my defensive assets?" Make mental notes about those areas and check the very closely or (if possible) just avoid them.

 

I have to constantly survival my surroundings.

 

Yup. It is unfortunate that you are restricted to hatswitch view though - this will make this very difficult. :/

 

And when getting to my target I just need to plan things right and floor it to where it is.

 

Yup - never engage into an unknown. Always have a plan in mind and have contingency plans for getting the heck out if things go wrong - even though planning is a must, you should also remember the military proverb that "no plan ever survives contact with the enemy".

 

Really I thought MANPADs had a further range than my gun, I'll have to try that. And I'm not that much of a rookie. :smartass:

 

Well, the missile itself does have longer range, but with a MANPAD the limiting factor is the guy on the ground that has to visually find you to know where to point it. Mk1 eyeball is surprisingly bad at spotting aircraft - especially NOE-flying ones like attack helos.

 

Take the same Stinger missile and mount it on a vehicle with IR or radar sensors and laser rangefinders and you're in a whole other world of hurt - but obviously such vehicles are also easier for you yourself to spot in time.

[BKLronin]

http://realandsimulatedwars.yolasite.com/dcs-black-shark-tactics-primer.php

 

This may also help a bit

[Woots]

Hi, this is my first post after making the account a few months ago. :P

 

Your counter says it's your second post :smilewink:

[EtherealN]

Woots, he posted again in the same thread after that one... ;)

[thisisentchris87]

Oooh... If you have a webcam, consider getting CachYa or something. It's like 20 dollars and gets you good functionality. If money is less of an issue, get TrackIR - more expensive, but it will blow your world away. (And it should be noted that it's useable in ArmA and such as well, even in the infantry role.)

 

 

Yeah I have a web cam and I don't have the money for TrackIR, so I'll check out that Cachya. How well does it work with DCS?

 

 

I can't quite agree with this one - if your LWR is going bonkers there's something with a ranging laser measuring you up in preparation for a very nasty shot - could be anything from an Avenger getting some range info to launch at you to an MBT preparing to place a 105mm HEAT round in your face.

 

What you want to do is study the map very closely before embarking on the mission. Check for possible ingress routes and plan your flight - if you plan when you're already airborne you've lost initiative. Then take a moment and think to yourself "if I was the other guy, where would I place my defensive assets?" Make mental notes about those areas and check the very closely or (if possible) just avoid them.

 

Ok so its just more planning and tactics then.

 

Would staying low to the ground to the ground help? If an anti-aircraft vehicle is not using anything that would tip of the LWR, would they be using radar?

[EtherealN]

I haven't used Cachya myself (I have a TrackIR 4 Pro), but those that do use Cachya have vouched for it, and for the relatively small expense I'd say it's worth a look. Being able to "use your head" to look around really is something that can really change your world. I used to fly with mouse-view in DCS:BS, IL-2 and FC1, but a month or so into DCS:BS I went ahead and purchased the headtracker unit and I will never go back. Even though I was quite good with mouseview after some 10 years of using it as my view method, the difference just blew me away.

 

Preferable altitude depends a lot on the threat situation. If the threats are mainly stuff like Stingers and Vulcans, you could just stay real high - but that's where Strelas, Avengers and such can really start messing with you. If there are longer-range SAM threats in the are, or hostile air cover, your tool is terrain. Keep hills, buildings and such between you and possible threat areas - and try to keep your route such that if you get engaged you'll have another building or hill nearby to dive in behind.

 

And yes, several vehicles like the Shilka use radar, and there's others that use infra-red imaging to detect and lock on you - and for a Ka-50 pilot those will both be "stealth" attacks since he has no sensors that can pick those up.

[thisisentchris87]

Preferable altitude depends a lot on the threat situation. If the threats are mainly stuff like Stingers and Vulcans, you could just stay real high - but that's where Strelas, Avengers and such can really start messing with you. If there are longer-range SAM threats in the are, or hostile air cover, your tool is terrain. Keep hills, buildings and such between you and possible threat areas - and try to keep your route such that if you get engaged you'll have another building or hill nearby to dive in behind.

 

And yes, several vehicles like the Shilka use radar, and there's others that use infra-red imaging to detect and lock on you - and for a Ka-50 pilot those will both be "stealth" attacks since he has no sensors that can pick those up.

 

So another key is terrain. And I assume radar and infra-red will have difficulty with locking on if I'm behind a building or hill, so terrain will beat those attacks.

 

If I was going to a target area, I would use terrain and speed to get to a prearranged firing location that I believe would be relatively safe. Once there I would take out any immediate threats and then attack the target. Of course I'll take into considertion everything you said, plus whatever is mentioned in the link BKLronin posted.

[EtherealN]

Yup. :)

 

And don't be dissuaded if this turns out difficult to do - it's a lot of factors to squeeze into the same flight, and you will make mistakes and sometimes they'll cost you your virtual life.

 

A tool I would recommend is Tacview. (http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php)

This allows you to do a post-flight analysis at your own pace to try to find out what went wrong and what went right. We use it a lot in the squadron (way more so than track files) to look at details to work on when training - though I'm flying the Eagle in FC2 there, but the benefit is the same.

[Bushmanni]

One thing that has saved my butt many times is looking around outside and trying to spot missile launches when moving. This would be hard with anything else except trackIR or comparable system. The launch and smoke trail is pretty easy to spot if you happen to look at the right direction. Often you also have quite a good idea where the missiles will be coming if there's going to be any which reduces the scan sector. You might also be able to choose your flying path so that it leaves possible ground defenses only on one side.

 

You should create a training mission that has some MANPADs hiding and then try to hunt them down while spotting for launches. That will give you some idea how fast you can scan so that you can still spot the launch and not look too long at the same direction. Spotting launches felt really hardcore stuff to me that takes some superhuman attention capability but to my surprise it was a lot easier than I had thought after some practice. Actually I happened to fly one super deadly mission that got me really on my toes and flying that mission for a while revealed to me that it is indeed possible to see the missile coming at me before it's too late if you just try hard enough. At least sometimes. :music_whistling: Basically you have to be very motivated to stay alive in order to be able to keep the focus.

 

When you spot the launch you can then try to break the lock by going very low and pumping out flares. AA missiles are designed to lead their target and will fly into ground if you take a steep enough dive immediately after you spot the launch. Also radar missiles are guided by a tracking radar and going low breaks the lock and the missiles will self destruct after few seconds.

[sweinhart3]

You can also exceed engagement parameters through switching the weapon panel from auto to manual. It will then allow you to fire even if you are outside normal ranges - bit of training will teach you when this still gives you rounds-on-target. For the gun specifically the setting on auto isn't really about actual ballistic range of the rounds - it's for effective use. If you're fine with a lot of rounds missing just to get that critical one or two hits, flip to manual and engage with cannon at 3km. :)

 

When I approach a hostile area the first thing I look for are the strelas and avengers. Those are always my first targets at maximum range. As far as MANPADS are concerned I engage them at 4km regulary in auto mode without ever having to flip to manual. On target hits are a bit iffy so when I engage them, I switch to low firing rate and use short bursts to conserve ammo. At 4km, I probably have about 60% success rate of killing them without ever having been fired on. When I do get fired on there is quite a bit of time to manuever. I dump a few flares and often dont even have to move more than a few meters and probably about 90% of the time I am successful at avoiding getting hit after a launch. I still get unlucky occasionally but when I die in battle its rarely because of them.

 

Also of note, Ive watched the AI march straight into their stinger shots and they are still able to avoid them quite often. They will keep doing it too even after being shot at a few times. Each MANPAD seems to have 2-3 stinger shots and then they are out of ammo. After that you can hover on top of them and they wont bother you.