Ka 50's

[GGTharos]

And here's on p276-277

 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=GrdnLrHh9DcC&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=Dan+Bakke+helicopter+radar&source=bl&ots=ySPsmlKYS7&sig=yZm5YcxguIhZ1KtXpBWWd7Mmrvk&hl=en&ei=m6fxS-3MLYK88gbDw_H9Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Dan%20Bakke%20helicopter%20radar&f=false

[Cyb0rg]

Humm.. it seems we have no chance against those fast movers.

Maybe AWACS could help warning us so we could hide behind a tree..er.. maybe a building :D .. also, having friendly fast movers covering our backs :thumbup:

[Total]

I was tracking a Kamov KA-25 on the flight deck of the Moskva CHG with an An/SPS-67 surface search radar.

 

Very possibile indeed. Rotary wing aircraft stand out like a sore thumb. they are the poster chilren for radar cross section.

[JLZ]

GGTharos, I read the story from both sources.

 

Helicopters were not spotted by AWACS but by friendly ground troops.

F-15 was coordinated to site in order to find choppers.

F-15 spotted helicopters with FLIR first at the time when F-15 flight was 10-15 miles from friendly team (other pilot says they have had radar contact first).

Pilots mention they had been 5-10 miles away when they identified choppers as Mi-24.

F-15 sustained lock on chopper while it was on the ground bcs of rotating blades. In pilots words: "As soon as the helicopters picked up and started moving, we were getting hits off them on the radar. The radar would stay locked on them when they were on the ground because the moving rotor blades were picked up."

 

There is no mention at which distance they had made radar lock. I couldn't find info about 50nm. Please, point me.

Choppers were flying over 185km/h.

It was night and there is no mention of choppers altitude

I presume all of this happened in desert (not much obstacles)

 

 

 

Brit_Radar_Dude, I have no doubts that chopper or any other aircraft can be caught by radar. But, you need to search specifically for choppers on given coordinates to find it. Do random searches or AWACS regular scanning routine would be able to detect it easily? You have to account for weather, distance and ground configuration (at least) but also good chopper piloting could help masking. Sorry, no documents but one from 1985 which could easily be rejected due it's date.

To be sincere, I didn't know that blades with relatively small area and high RPM could make such a difference for radar detection.

 

 

I don't want to be smart-ass about this. All I wanna say is Ka50 should stay invisible for AWACS radar under certain circumstances (low speed, low altitude, distance). The same should be true for fighter's radar and the distance could be biggest factor (10-15 miles)

 

Cheers :thumbup:

[Vympel]

I believe attacking helicopters flying at low altitude with bombs is actually a standard technique, as it avoids dangerous very low altitude maneuvers. For instance, it is recommended in Shaw's Fighter Combat.

 

Of course, the objective isn't usually to score a direct hit (as in this case) - but to land the bomb within a few hundred meters of the flying helicopter, and let the blast do the rest.

[winz]

To be sincere, I didn't know that blades with relatively small area and high RPM could make such a difference for radar detection.

Small? I think you greatly underestimate the sensitivity of nowadays radars. The moment a radar wave lands on those rotating blades, it will be returned with a big frequency shift. And that's is exactly what the receiver is looking for.

Nor a car, nor a roof, or anything stationary will return such a shifted wave.

[isoul]

... (1)My question was how radar will distinguish moving ground vehicle from low flying chopper in speeds below 90km/h?

 

(2) In RL very few Mi-8 and Gazzeles flights were detected by NATO AWACS in no-fly zones in Bosnia.

 

(3) And at the end, game should be more fun (less frustration) if choppers become undetectable in certain conditions (low and relatively slow flight).

 

My 2 cents...

 

1) Do you mean in RL or in-game? In real life, as people said above, the rotor blade's turning speed is enough to distinguish a ground vehicle from a rotor-craft even if the last is hovering (remember that rotor blades are still moving at high speed).

 

2) AFAIK in RL the key to remain undetected is to use terrain cover as best as you can. In Bosnia the ground morphology is such that helicopters can fly low AND UNDETECTED MOST OF THE TIME!

 

3) Would it?

[GGTharos]

Actually they can and will be picked up at 50nm, which is exactly what the pilot operating the radar said.

There exists a very detailed account where they describe exactly how they used their instruments, including the fact that they left the radar in A2A mode, having picked up the helis from 50nm and continued tracking them with the pod slaved to radar until the attack.

Your conclusion is thus incorrect; further, what we know is already backed up by other pilots citing detection ranges of ~40nm against helicopters with composite rotor blades. The speed the heli is moving at has less to do with its detection than the rotors.

 

I don't want to be smart-ass about this. All I wanna say is Ka50 should stay invisible for AWACS radar under certain circumstances (low speed, low altitude, distance). The same should be true for fighter's radar and the distance could be biggest factor (10-15 miles)

 

Cheers :thumbup:

[JLZ]

Actually they can and will be picked up at 50nm, which is exactly what the pilot operating the radar said.

There exists a very detailed account where they describe exactly how they used their instruments, including the fact that they left the radar in A2A mode, having picked up the helis from 50nm and continued tracking them with the pod slaved to radar until the attack.

Your conclusion is thus incorrect; further, what we know is already backed up by other pilots citing detection ranges of ~40nm against helicopters with composite rotor blades. The speed the heli is moving at has less to do with its detection than the rotors.

 

I'm sorry, I couldn't find citation from pilots in links you gave me. Would you help me and point me in?

[GGTharos]

Sadly I don't have time right now. I wish all the references were at my finger-tips, but alas, they aren't.

Further a real radar operator responded to you in this very thread.

[Lulac]

JLZ, My fellow countryman !

 

All this what this "western capitalist" said is true ! Helicopter can be detected by AWACS from much more distance than 50 nm . . . I'm not a radar operator . . . my job is :music_walkman: . . . and I was truly witness couple times of such events. You can trust me on this . . .

 

 

. . . like usa U-2 dragons lady: In God we trust all others we monitor !

[GGTharos]

Hehe, electronic intelligence? Eavesdropping on the radio? :)

[JLZ]

Lulac, so it's true :( OK, then :)

 

For the record, I've found that NATO issued 5000 complaints about breaching no-fly zone. They just have orders not to engage if choppers haven't been in combat flight but to ground it or force to leave zone. I was wrong again.

 

Sorry that I brought it up.

[Focha]

GGTharos, I read the story from both sources.

 

Helicopters were not spotted by AWACS but by friendly ground troops.

F-15 was coordinated to site in order to find choppers.

F-15 spotted helicopters with FLIR first at the time when F-15 flight was 10-15 miles from friendly team (other pilot says they have had radar contact first).

Pilots mention they had been 5-10 miles away when they identified choppers as Mi-24.

F-15 sustained lock on chopper while it was on the ground bcs of rotating blades. In pilots words: "As soon as the helicopters picked up and started moving, we were getting hits off them on the radar. The radar would stay locked on them when they were on the ground because the moving rotor blades were picked up."

 

There is no mention at which distance they had made radar lock. I couldn't find info about 50nm. Please, point me.

Choppers were flying over 185km/h.

It was night and there is no mention of choppers altitude

I presume all of this happened in desert (not much obstacles)

 

 

 

Brit_Radar_Dude, I have no doubts that chopper or any other aircraft can be caught by radar. But, you need to search specifically for choppers on given coordinates to find it. Do random searches or AWACS regular scanning routine would be able to detect it easily? You have to account for weather, distance and ground configuration (at least) but also good chopper piloting could help masking. Sorry, no documents but one from 1985 which could easily be rejected due it's date.

To be sincere, I didn't know that blades with relatively small area and high RPM could make such a difference for radar detection.

 

 

I don't want to be smart-ass about this. All I wanna say is Ka50 should stay invisible for AWACS radar under certain circumstances (low speed, low altitude, distance). The same should be true for fighter's radar and the distance could be biggest factor (10-15 miles)

 

Cheers :thumbup:

 

I thought this was the story with the F-15E in the Gulf War when they picked up the helicopter in ground with the ATA RADAR then cued the targeting pod with ATA RADAR, they got the helis visually in the pod and lase it, they released the bomb after it the heli started moving at 800'-1000' and with the target still painted they hit the target with a LGB (GBU-10). According to the pilots they got contact about fifty miles away on the RADAR.

 

About the AWACS on that mission, quoting one of the pilots accordingly with the book "Strike Eagles - Flying the F-15E in the Gulf War";

 

"I called AWACS and I reconfirmed with them that we have the helicopter. Actually, what we have on RADAR contact is their rotor spinning."

 

Just my 0.02 euros on this.

 

Regards.