Deployment Campaign mission 2 "Escort": Help!

[hobbes57]

Hi guys,

 

I've tried that mission now for the fifth time, having reasonable flying skills and slowly edging my way into combat. Even knowing where the ambush will take place, I alsways get shot down by a Stinger, it seems there's no way to avoid it. Usually, I just hover 2 km out from the village and pour rockets into the bushes when the rebels start firing.... then the Stinger hits me.

 

If I move around, the convoy gets shot to pieces... and thew wingman isn't too helpful either.

 

Any tips for that particular scenario?

- Hobbes

[Haril]

You could try dropping a pair of flares every second from when the combat starts to when it ends. If you know a more accurate time when the stinger spawns, you could drop them more densely just for that period. I've played that mission twice, albeit not with this current patch, and the stinger never launched at me. Maybe I was just lucky.

[sukhoi350]

same here actually... i passed the mission on the 2nd occasion and the stinger never fired into me. my tactic was just fire a bunch of rockets into the trees while slowly edging forward, then turn around and start flying at about 60km/h carfully finding all the all th rebels with Shkval and firing the cannon. i find the cannon a million times more effective in these situations. dont forget to take the guys out on the roof of the building.

 

i actually never knew there's a stinger in that mission! i only saw a guy on the roof top with an RPG. the 1st time i got shot down coz i just overflew the rebels at low speed and altitude (i'm guessin gun fire shot me down?)

[isoul]

The best way is to release flares every now and then. IRL this will give hard time for the stinger operator to obtain a lock. In game setting a program like 323 or 333 from both sides and punching the button every now and then is good enough I think.

 

Flares are dropped most of the time to distract sensors rather than missiles. See a strike aircraft in youtube... most drop flares not because they are attacked but because they want to avoid being attacked.

 

Don't hesitate to launch flares. Normally the fight will end before you deplete your flare stock.

[Haril]

DCS:Blackshark doesn't model that aspect of flare use, unfortunately. I'm suggesting dropping flares every second as I know my reaction times aren't good enough to make it to the countermeasure button between missile launch and impact at the sort of ranges where MANPADs are a threat.

[winz]

DCS:Blackshark doesn't model that aspect of flare use, unfortunately.

It does, there is a chance that the the unit will lanuch a missile with the flare locked instead of you.

Frederf did some testing here : http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=908046&postcount=19

[Haril]

That thread only had AlphaOneSix saying he thought that preemptive flares did have an effect of attracting launched missiles. The testing itself wasn't really testing this, unfortunately, and was mostly testing to see which dispenser patterns are most effective. I still don't believe that preemptive flares have any effect on a launch, though they would have an effect on a loose missile where they provide an additional non-helicopter target to get fixated on.

 

The only real way to test preemptive flares would be to dispense right up to the missile launch, and then drop nothing else and see where the missile ends up.

[Frederf]

Preemptive vs. post-launch effectiveness wasn't well tested in those runs, it's true.

 

My experience running those trials however is that, if there's a difference between preemptive and not, it's much, much less than real life. With a SA-18 shooting at you with its 3 missiles, dumping flares like crazy from before the first shot and through the second, turning off the flare faucet before the 3rd launch.... it will hit you on the 3rd missile.

 

It seemed to be very simple behavior were the biggest (or only) factors were in what part of the missile's flight the flare was launched and how many flares were launched.

[hobbes57]

Thanks for all your input guys! I guess it all boils down to "how to avoid MANPADs in close quarters", something I'll definitely have to practise.

 

I did dump flares continuously in that mission, but usually the first Stinger launch nailed me - so my flares probably weren't that effective. Does anyone know how "badly" flares spoil a Stinger launch/lock? In real,life I mean, is it more of a 5% or 50% chance?

 

How does altitude factor into this? Woul 10m RALT be safer for me that my current ~150m?

 

Also, should I be moving? To or from the launch area? Does the orientation of my enginer exhausts affect anything?

 

If everything fails, I might just have to use my wingman as Stinger absorber until I can swat the launcher.

[Haril]

Last time I completed it, I followed the convoy at 600m about 3km behind them. When the ambush ambushed, the woods got all my rockets then I tidied up with the cannon. This would not be sensible in an environment with enemy air defences, but the guys hiding in the wood don't really have any.

[MajorTom]

I have done this mission many, many times due to being shot down by the stinger. I decided to take control of one of my unsuccessful tracks and after shooting down my wingman, the stinger missile for me very, very ,very luckily hit one of the flares I was shooting out. Unfortunately due to it being a track it would not let me progress to the next mission :(

 

Has anyone figured out how to get the completely useless wingman to attack the troops doing the ambush? If there was a radio command to tell him to just crash into the ground it would save him a lot of time and effort because thats where he always ends up.

[isoul]

Unfortunately the wingman AI is bad! The weird thing is that even in quick mission the friendly Mi-24's are more helpful than your own wingman.

 

Friendly Hinds fly around hitting targets with missiles and cannon while your wingman will engage always at hover which makes him a sitting duck above the battlefield.

 

Maybe next patch will improve wingman AI...

[Luke.S]

what you need to do is get so close he can't get a lock. iirc stingers have a minimum safe distance. When i did that mission I hovered really close to him dumped the collective and nosed down to let off some rockets.

[Haril]

After some testing, I've determined that preemptive flare launch *is* modelled in DCS:BS. Setting myself up agaist an Igla dude and a Strela, I set up countermeasure programs of 017, 011 and 012 and and started them just before I got into range then slowed down time using alt+z. When the hostile launched, I stopped the countermeasure program and watched the missiles. With the Igla, the majority of the missiles with 017 and 011 went after the flares dropped before launch, but usually hit the helicopter with 012. With the strela, it was around 50% with 011 and pretty much a guaranteed kill with 012.

 

It seems more important to have a flare near the helicopter at the time of launch than having a billion flare strung out behind you but further away. Launching single sided with 011 resulted in the same effect as launching two-sided with 011, so double launching seems like a waste.

 

I'll be flying with 011 programmed from now on, with a single side selected, and pressing the go button when I'm somewhere hostile. That's 2 minutes of semi-protection assuming you remember to switch sides half way through.

[Bucic]

After some testing, I've determined that preemptive flare launch *is* modelled in DCS:BS. Setting myself up agaist an Igla dude and a Strela, I set up countermeasure programs of 017, 011 and 012 and and started them just before I got into range then slowed down time using alt+z. When the hostile launched, I stopped the countermeasure program and watched the missiles. With the Igla, the majority of the missiles with 017 and 011 went after the flares dropped before launch, but usually hit the helicopter with 012. With the strela, it was around 50% with 011 and pretty much a guaranteed kill with 012.

 

It seems more important to have a flare near the helicopter at the time of launch than having a billion flare strung out behind you but further away. Launching single sided with 011 resulted in the same effect as launching two-sided with 011, so double launching seems like a waste.

 

I'll be flying with 011 programmed from now on, with a single side selected, and pressing the go button when I'm somewhere hostile. That's 2 minutes of semi-protection assuming you remember to switch sides half way through.

:thumbup:

 

 

As for the mission walktrough - make sure you load up lots of fuel for your wingman and shoot him down when he will overfly the rebels. This is to make the most out of him. :music_whistling: Then quickly proceed to your engagement.

[isoul]

Good work Haril!

[Frederf]

After some testing, I've determined that preemptive flare launch *is* modeled in DCS:BS.When the hostile launched, I stopped the countermeasure program and watched the missiles.

 

It seems more important to have a flare near the helicopter at the time of launch than having a billion flare strung out behind you but further away.

 

The only conclusion you can safely draw from that is it's not the flare launch event itself that changes the missile's target. I did a similar test where many flares were launched and then the program ceased 1-2 seconds prior to the first launch (the magic of knowing exactly when they will launch). The missile went for a flare post-launch likely because the presence of a flare can change the target by proximity and not that the target was the flare initially.

 

The declaration of preemptive flares being modeled would hinge upon proof that the missile's target was some object other than the aircraft from at least launch if not before. Even then, ideally flares would suppress launches instead of simply spoofing them.

 

It's extremely likely (knowing programmers) that the missile is always targeting the Ka-50 at launch as an object reference handoff between the AI unit and the missile at missile creation. Then is simply able to switch mid-flight, even if that "mid flight" is during the very early straight launch phase of a folding-fin tube-launched missile.

 

Most if not all of these IR SAMs are lock on before launch which is unlikely to be modeled since the missile itself doesn't seem to exist as an entity separate from the launching platform prior to launch.

 

The proper way to program it would be to have a pre-launch measurement be taken where the AI simply inputs a vector to the missile seeker and the seeker is assigned an object near that vector probabilistically (say a gaussian with weighting coefficients for different object types) then this object tracked using whatever fallible logic drives the seeker for a second or two before launch, through the launch event, and onward.

 

I severely doubt that's what's going on. I'm guessing the missile is created with the array [ownerID, targetID, x,y,z, o_x, o_y, o_z, initspeed] and evolves of its own accord.

[Frederf]

After some testing, I've determined that preemptive flare launch *is* modeled in DCS:BS.When the hostile launched, I stopped the countermeasure program and watched the missiles.

 

It seems more important to have a flare near the helicopter at the time of launch than having a billion flare strung out behind you but further away.

 

The only conclusion you can safely draw from that is it's not the flare launch event itself that changes the missile's target. I did a similar test where many flares were launched and then the program ceased 1-2 seconds prior to the first launch (the magic of knowing exactly when they will launch). The missile went for a flare post-launch likely because the presence of a flare can change the target by proximity and not that the target was the flare initially.

 

The declaration of preemptive flares being modeled would hinge upon proof that the missile's target was some object other than the aircraft from at least launch if not before. Even then, ideally flares would suppress launches instead of simply spoofing them.

 

It's extremely likely (knowing programmers) that the missile is always targeting the Ka-50 at launch as an object reference handoff between the AI unit and the missile at missile creation. Then is simply able to switch mid-flight, even if that "mid flight" is during the very early straight launch phase of a folding-fin tube-launched missile.

 

Most if not all of these IR SAMs are lock on before launch which is unlikely to be modeled since the missile itself doesn't seem to exist as an entity separate from the launching platform prior to launch.

 

The proper way to program it would be to have a pre-launch measurement be taken where the AI simply inputs a vector to the missile seeker and the seeker memory is assigned an object near that vector probabilistically (say a gaussian with weighting coefficients for different object types) then this object tracked using whatever fallible logic drives the seeker for a second or two before launch, through the launch event, and onward.

 

I severely doubt that's what's going on. I'm guessing the missile is created with the array [ownerID, targetID, x,y,z, o_x, o_y, o_z, initspeed] and evolves of its own accord.

[LukeSky]

I completed that mission 2 times and one time I've been shot down.

But, never be able to complete that mission without losing 1 or 2 convoy trucks, does someone did it without losing anything ?

 

The Stinger man is located near the house, so, throw a bunch of rockets in the forest and another bunch of rockets in the little village.

 

The way I did it is in auto Hover, and turning around the village, while shooting everything I got. wish there is no civilian in this area :) well, if there was, they are no more ;)

[msalama]

I just completed the mission with a 100% success rate, and only lost the forward IFV ground escort. But that was more by sheer luck than anything I suppose? I did constantly order my wingman to recon ahead, but the bloke STILL missed the rebels regardless of flying directly over them! Alas, they almost got _my_ a** a while later, because I only spotted them at the last possible moment myself :mad: :cry:

 

What probably saved me was spamming a c**pload of flares and immediately ordering my wingie to attack. That he did pretty successfully and killed most rebels with his first couple of salvos, leaving the rest for me to wipe out (largely) at my leisure. I don't know if the SAM dude was still alive by then, but I was probably inside his minimum range most of the time anyway because he never fired back after the initial contact...

 

Gotta love this sim. Took me 2 years of on-off flying to eventually feel confident enough to start my first campaign, but here we are nevertheless :)

[Frederf]

AI wingman have no ability to detect infantry objects. It's a decision on ED's part. There's a mod out there that makes AI detect infantry objects.

[msalama]

AI wingman have no ability to detect infantry objects. It's a decision on ED's part. There's a mod out there that makes AI detect infantry objects.

 

:doh: Thanks for the info Fred, I didn't know that. How's the mod BTW, anyone here using it?

[Bucic]

:doh: Thanks for the info Fred, I didn't know that. How's the mod BTW, anyone here using it?

The mods are made by user by the name of goldfinger35.

[msalama]

Thank you Bucic! Will check them out immediately after getting back home from work...

[Bucic]

Thank you Bucic! Will check them out immediately after getting back home from work...

Actually the guy made a serie of mods:

A-10 gau-8 destroys tanks, burst rates.zip

AI can detect Stinger and Igla.zip

AISkills102.zip

Archive.zip

draw_pilot = true.zip

Improved SAMs.zip

skill levels modified.zip

t-55 weaker armour.zip

 

Thank him nicely!