Help on Double beaming a missile

[shackman]

I've finally learned how to succesfully beam a missle. But the one problem i run into is once I've beamed 1 missile and am still going away from it with it at my 3 or 9 o'clock 1 or more is shot at me from my 3 or 9 o'clock. So how can you counter act that, when you are beaming a missile and then another is fired? Should you break back into the fight after you see the missile isn't tracking any more, so that you can put your weapons on the enemy?:doh:

 

And when you're in HOJ mode against Mig 29s is there a way to counteract their jamming or do you have to wait?

 

Sorry but I'm still a noob to LOMAC :(

Edited June 20, 2010 by shackman

[Moa]

You cannot win by staying purely defensive - your enemy just gets closer and closer improving his hit chances with each shot.

 

If you have an active missile try and launch a missile before your enemy does. You can do this flying at low level. Support it as long as you can before going defensive (read the manual about the F-15's missile countdown timeer). Even if you don't get him he'll go defensive for a bit by which time you should be ready to re-engage.

[shackman]

You cannot win by staying purely defensive - your enemy just gets closer and closer improving his hit chances with each shot.

 

If you have an active missile try and launch a missile before your enemy does. You can do this flying at low level. Support it as long as you can before going defensive (read the manual about the F-15's missile countdown timeer). Even if you don't get him he'll go defensive for a bit by which time you should be ready to re-engage.

I do try and engage but the 1st thing they do when I start the 1v2 is jam me. So I lose my radar immediately.

 

The copy of LOMAC I have didn't come with a manual. Dony know why, but the FC2 manual will talk about this and defensive tactics right?

 

I'm just still a noob, but if I ever got good I'd love your community:thumbup:

[Fahhh]

Go into the folder you installed the game and look for another folder called Doc. In there you should find the manual...

[shackman]

Go into the folder you installed the game and look for another folder called Doc. In there you should find the manual...

Thanks for that didn't know I had that, but that essentially told me what I already knew and that is how to beam a missile. It didn't tell me how to counter 2 other missiles fired at you from a 3/9 position?

[nomdeplume]

Well I don't think you're going to find any magic tricks. I think the best counter to having multiple missiles inbound is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place. i.e. turn around and run to the cover of your own SAM sites, friendly aircraft, etc.

 

Since this is for training/learning purposes, you want to prosecute the fight anyway. So in that case, your best bet is to fire first in order to put the enemy on the defensive. If you have AWACS you can use them to determine the range to the enemy when they're jamming. Otherwise, you'll have to guess. Fire in HOJ mode at the edge of your range.

 

I'm not really sure why you expect to be able to survive when you're defensive against two enemy fighters and you're all by yourself. :)

 

Put yourself in the position of one of the MiG pilots: would you expect the enemy fighter to have any chance against you in that situation?

[shackman]

Well I don't think you're going to find any magic tricks. I think the best counter to having multiple missiles inbound is to avoid getting into that situation in the first place. i.e. turn around and run to the cover of your own SAM sites, friendly aircraft, etc.

 

Since this is for training/learning purposes, you want to prosecute the fight anyway. So in that case, your best bet is to fire first in order to put the enemy on the defensive. If you have AWACS you can use them to determine the range to the enemy when they're jamming. Otherwise, you'll have to guess. Fire in HOJ mode at the edge of your range.

 

I'm not really sure why you expect to be able to survive when you're defensive against two enemy fighters and you're all by yourself. :)

 

Put yourself in the position of one of the MiG pilots: would you expect the enemy fighter to have any chance against you in that situation?

 

I can see your point on 1v2, but in recent training exercises I've done it's been 2v2. And around 15nm we both launch an AMRAAM in HOJ mode. But the thing is maybe I'm just setting up this whole situation wrong, I'm trying to fine my skills when I get FC 2 in July, for my birthday:D. But maybe setting up 2 Eagles against 2 Mig 29Ss at 20 nm is not like what you'd expect in a LOMAC FC 2 mission since there you have AWACS and a lot more protection.Then again maybe I'm wrong?:huh:

 

 

I just hope that after each engagement I'll get better and have good defensive skills to take down 2 opponents so i can play onmline as I have never gotten into LOMAC, cause Vista keeps crashing the original, but wanted to. So I believe when FC 2 comes I'll get better.

[EtherealN]

I'm not sure how close your illustration follows what you are actually doing, but it should be noted that it looks like you first beam and possibly enter a notch for a while, but once the second missile/salvo is launched you will have left any chance at a notch. What I would do in this case is to drop altitude to force the missile(s) to look-down on you and have you disappear in the clutter notch. To do this, maintain them on the 9-3 - do not simply go defensive and turn to the 9-3 and then keep moving in a straight line; instead you want to constantly monitor your RWR and possibly acquire contrails visually and keep the enemy emitters (for semiactives) or missiles (for actives) on that 3-9 line.

 

Beaming also has several problems in geometry that you need to be aware of - if the engagement starts too close or, as might be happening here, the second missile is launched closer in than the first, the pure beaming of the missile will not allow you to out-gimbal the seeker since the second missile's higher energy and closer range will allow it to stay closer to pure.

 

Basically - I think you are trying to defend through beaming in a situation where you should switch to another defensive tactic.

[shackman]

Basically - I think you are trying to defend through beaming in a situation where you should switch to another defensive tactic.

If you don't mind me asking what other defensive maneuver would you suggest? And could you give a description of it?

[EtherealN]

The foremost would be the "look-down clutter notch".

 

This is a complex thing, but pretty similar to "beaming". Basically you are continually beaming (that is, adjusting your position continually to keep the emitter at the 3-9), but also staying below the emitter or missile, giving them a ground background. Basically you want the same relative velocity towards/away from the emitter as the ground they have in the background when they look at you. Do it right and the enemy emitter will filter you out as "ground clutter".

 

Drawback here is that it does allow your enemy to close range on you, which can be a problem, but training to execute the method should be done before trying to figure out when to either re-engage or disengage.

 

An alternative is the air-quake style split-S. Basically immediately invert with an aileron roll, pull back until heading the other direction, and use the thicker air as well as your speed to bleed energy off of the enemy missile. Problem here is that you are now effectively disengaged - there is no way for you to quickly turn back into the offensive, and it does require that you are at a position where you can quickly access thick air, which unfortunately means your own missiles will have much reduced range.

 

Flying the F-15, your best defence is combined with offense - you want to send a missile towards the enemy and time a notch so that you only have to stay in it for a very short time (this takes a lot of practice) and then go back to the offense while the enemy has been forced to try defending against the defensive shot you made.

Edited June 20, 2010 by EtherealN

[shackman]

 

Flying the F-15, your best defence is combined with offense - you want to send a missile towards the enemy and time a notch so that you only have to stay in it for a very short time (this takes a lot of practice) and then go back to the offense while the enemy has been forced to try defending against the defensive shot you made.

Thanks for the help, I feel I'm getting better at defensive maneuvers. Reason is because I now fly with a wingman and I lock up 2 bogeys using TWS and then wait for them to fire then fire 2 AMRAAMs and if I have a missile coming at me I pull hard right or left and dive for the ground inverted while releasing chaff/flares. And also sometimes have to do some climbs or dives to bleed the missile's energy.

 

But what you said EtherealN that's what I do,first get a lock send 1 or 2 down range and if they fire then start defensive moves. Probably not maybe, but surely I'm still a noob but I hope I'm learning things better, and am on the right path.

[EtherealN]

One other point: vary your stick while defensive: basically, if they launch on you at very extreme range you can maneuver vertically (+20 degrees to -20 degrees or whatever) before timing your turn to defensive. Basically, this causes the missiles to constantly maneuver which bleeds them of energy and makes things a lot easier for you when (if) you have to turn defensive, and increases the amount of time you can spend supporting your missile(s).

[shackman]

One other point: vary your stick while defensive: basically, if they launch on you at very extreme range you can maneuver vertically (+20 degrees to -20 degrees or whatever) before timing your turn to defensive. Basically, this causes the missiles to constantly maneuver which bleeds them of energy and makes things a lot easier for you when (if) you have to turn defensive, and increases the amount of time you can spend supporting your missile(s).

Out of curiosity do you think i'm staying on the right path or am i screwing up?

[Svend_Dellepude]

and then wait for them to fire then fire 2 AMRAAMs.

 

Why would you wanna do that? That would be like standing in front of two guys and waiting for them to hit you, slap both of them, then throw yourself to the ground and wait for more punishment. doesn't realy make any sense.. :P

If you give the enemy the first shot he's more likely the win the engagement. To start an engagement against two guys on the defensive is a bad idea.

Here is what might happen:

 

You gave him first shot which means that you are not able to support your AMRAAM's because you already got a missile incoming, so you now have to break and most likely trash two missiles (depending of the range). Next you have to reengage and reaquire him, problem is; you don't know where he is but he probably knows where you are and will fire as soon as he see's you breaking in to him again, forcing you on defence once more. By now you are running out of options. He's high on energy after a nice straight run towards you and you are problaly not after evasive manuvering so you might try a suicide turn into him getting of a maddog or you could run. In the last case he will send you an ET if he got it.

Either way your chances of survival are pretty slim.

Anyway. -this happens to me a lot. :)

So this is one vs one. Two guys would just take turns in firing missiles and you wouldn't get a foot to the ground.

 

 

Make sure you get that first shot and support your AMRAAM's as long as you can.

 

Good hunting!

 

Svend

Edited June 20, 2010 by Svend_Dellepude

[thaFunkster]

As has been mentioned previously, the best method is not to get close to the enemy in the first place.

 

Have a look at Aero's tutorial on performing a Split S in BVR Combat, since seeing this I use this tactic all the time:

 

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[EtherealN]

The defensive split-S is nice and all, but I only really use it when I want to disengage since it basically takes me completely out of the fight. In a multi-ship fight it is basically a big "[expletive]-you" to a wingman or wing lead, since the enemy is now able to completely discount me: I have become irrelevant as a threat and they can gang up on my mate(s). Not a very nice thing to do.

 

I much prefer to notch and then return to the offensive. Even if I don't get an actual shot opportunity again I am at least keeping the enemy on their toes and ensure that I will have an easier time to offer support to a wingman/winglead if they should need it.

 

Shackman, you are on the (roughly) right path. You just need more flight time to get experience with various scenarios to learn to read the situation and make a good call on which defensive method is the most appropriate.

[shackman]

Shackman, you are on the (roughly) right path. You just need more flight time to get experience with various scenarios to learn to read the situation and make a good call on which defensive method is the most appropriate.

That's what i keep up is getting more flight time to understand how to take on anybody from any position 3/9 12/6 etc. I know that I'll get better just never played LOMAC in depth before. but now that it can run on Vista I'll be getting alot more flight time in.

[EtherealN]

Do you have tacview installed? If not I would really recommend that you get it up and running and then run a couple of the DACT missions by Wags, testing different things. Then fire up tacview and look real close at what happened and what your maneuvers did to the opposing missile(s) and their energy. What the AI does isn't so relevant here if your intent is to start going online (a good player outclasses any AI, a poor player will make terrible shots that are "too easy" to dodge), though once you get confident in your defensives you can start testing methods of going back on the offensive.

 

A "perfect" defense should have you only leave your offensive posture for 5-10 seconds maximum, though getting that good takes a lot of practice (I'm not there yet).

[shackman]

Tacview wouldn't affect FC2 ?

[EtherealN]

Tacview runs fine with FC2. You used to be able to "trick it" into thinking that it is Black Shark, but newest version runs fine.

 

EDIT: Or do you mean affect framerates? Not really. I haven't done a comprehensive test that could be considered statistically certain, but I've not seen any slowdown that is possible to differentiate from random background processes.

[shackman]

Here is a track file of what i mean of having to double beam a missile, i just beamed one but then the Flanker shot another, so how do you avoid that?

example of my problem.trk

[asparagin]

I can't open your .trk file, is there a chance you upload directly the .acmi file from tacview (temp folder of your FC2 installation problably)

[shackman]

I can't open your .trk file, is there a chance you upload directly the .acmi file from tacview (temp folder of your FC2 installation problably)

Sorry to say asparagin, but it was made with LOMAC 1 not FC 2. But'll i'll recreate it when I get FC 2 in about 5 days if that'll help you?

[asparagin]

Oh FC 1.0 that's why..

But still acmi files I can open, if you have such

[shackman]

Oh FC 1.0 that's why..

But still acmi files I can open, if you have such

What exactly are acmi files? Never heard of them? And sorry but I don't have any that I know of.

 

I'm still learning about all these new files. Sorry if I'm causing a problem.