How do they work (Russian aircraft)

[mvsgas]

As a mechanic, I'm very curious bout the intricacies of Russian aircraft. How those all it come together? How do they work? Most people won't be interested on this but, I figure, it would not hurt to ask. See, most people would like to fly a MIG-29 for an hour, I just want to take it apart and put it together while drinking some beers with buddies. Most people want to know how fast it goes, I want to know how difficult is to replace the engine. Ok anyway, some of the things I was wondering about;

 

I always see Russian aircraft with ground power applied before engine start;

What is the external power used for?

 

DCS BS shows that external ground power is not needed for start, are the fix wing aircraft the same way?

 

What power do they use, DC, AC or both?

 

I ask because newer US aircraft do not use or required any external equipment to start.

F-15, F-16, A-10, F-117, F-18. All this aircraft can start engine without and external source of power or air. The F-4 in contrast, requires external air source to spin the engines for start. Many old aircraft needed this.

 

Do Russian aircraft have batteries? F-15 does not have a batteries but F-16 and F-117 do.

 

I keep reading and hearing how Russian aircraft are able to operate from unprepared fields, how unprepared are we talking about? Just find it hard to comprehend a 40,000 lbs aircraft not getting stuck while trying to taxi on pack earth. I get the cargo aircraft, many wheel so weight is spread to more areas, but only 3 wheels, like on most attack or fighter aircraft do not seem to be the best suited for rough field operations.

Can they taxi or land while fully loaded on a unprepared field? If not, what are the limitations?

 

SU-25

In FC and FC2, it seems left engine airframe mounted gear box will power flight controls while right will power landing gear hydraulically. How close to the real this is this? I thinks this is crazy if it is at all close to the real deal. F-16 has 3 hydraulic pumps. F-117 had more than 4. On the F-15 and F-117, ether engine could pressurize both hydraulic systems. You would obviously have less gallons per minute (GPM) but you would have require pressure and more than enough GPM .

 

Do Russian aircraft have accessory drive gear boxes or airframe mounted gear boxes?

For us this is where the generators and Hydraulic pumps are mounted.

 

I doubt I will get any responses, after all is not as interesting as flying this great machines.

I guess I will see, fingers cross :geek:

 

I bet this has been ask before, I should start searching :suspect::ermm:

Edited August 18, 2010 by mvsgas

[mvsgas]

Uh, I almost forgot, wheel chocks

Why do they only place one per wheel?

Edited August 18, 2010 by mvsgas

[Boberro]

No, I disappoint you. I can't answer on your questions, but I must say i am interested about it too... especially how solid are planes in nasty airfields. Example, how that infect of plane's entrails, how can it speed up plane elements change to new ones.

 

 

Hope people answer on your questions, are interesting.

[Namenlos Ein]

A closer look at how it works.

 

[GGTharos]

As a mechanic, I'm very curious bout the intricacies of Russian aircraft. How those all it come together? How do they work? Most people won't be interested on this but, I figure, it would not hurt to ask. See, most people would like to fly a MIG-29 for an hour, I just want to take it apart and put it together while drinking some beers with buddies. Most people want to know how fast it goes, I want to know how difficult is to replace the engine. Ok anyway, some of the things I was wondering about;

 

The aircraft were supposed to be put together by relatively unskilled labour ... I think that says plenty.

Many engines would accompany combat aircraft in order to replace them when they're used up.

I think that says plenty, too.

 

These aircraft were basically engineered with this type of thing in mind.

 

 

I keep reading and hearing how Russian aircraft are able to operate from unprepared fields, how unprepared are we talking about? Just find it hard to comprehend a 40,000 lbs aircraft not getting stuck while trying to taxi on pack earth. I get the cargo aircraft, many wheel so weight is spread to more areas, but only 3 wheels, like on most attack or fighter aircraft do not seem to be the best suited for rough field operations.

Can they taxi or land while fully loaded on a unprepared field? If not, what are the limitations?

 

I think by unprepaired you should read 'paved road' or 'unmaintained/damaged airfield'.

[gigz-on]

What power do they use, DC, AC or both?

AC/DC :punk:

[mvsgas]

A closer look at how it works.

 

 

That looks like a very complicated landing gear. With so many hinges, corrosion inspections must be critical, right?

 

How are the brake lines routed? Do they go inside the gear it self? I ask because I did not notice brakes lines at first glance of the photos.

 

PS

I told you guys I had a lot of questions, thank you guys for the responses :thumbup:

[bumfire]

I dont know about russian aircraft, but I do have a video of a unloaded RAF jaguar taking off from a patch of grass, its what it was designed to do, hence the double wheels. And it was just a patch of grass, nothing special.

 

I wouldnt like to do such a thing with the 25t, thats for sure, but I am sure the 25 could handle such a deed with no problems.

Edited August 18, 2010 by bumfire
wasnt fully loaded, it was unloaded jag instead

[JLZ]

I always see Russian aircraft with ground power applied before engine start;

What is the external power used for?

 

DCS BS shows that external ground power is not needed for start, are the fix wing aircraft the same way?

 

What power do they use, DC, AC or both?

 

I ask because newer US aircraft do not use or required any external equipment to start.

F-15, F-16, A-10, F-117, F-18. All this aircraft can start engine without and external source of power or air. The F-4 in contrast, requires external air source to spin the engines for start. Many old aircraft needed this.

 

Do Russian aircraft have batteries? F-15 does not have a batteries but F-16 and F-117 do.

 

Ground starting of both engines is achieved by the APU via an ENG GBX for each engine. Electrical start-up power is supplied by an external power unit

or by two internal batteries.

Electrical power is provided by an AC and a DC generator driven by a gearbox. Two batteries supply emergency power.

Are you really interested? Say 'Thanks' to TriggerHappy69 and dl FLIGHT MANUAL MIG-29

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=959364&postcount=12

[nscode]

So how does the F-15 start if it has no batteries, and no external power? o.O

 

 

btw, MiG-29 electric systems

 

so, you have the option of startup on internal power, but external power is preffered

Edited August 18, 2010 by nscode

[GGTharos]

It uses a jet-fuel starter. I imagine that has some sort of battery for the initial ignition, but we're talking probably 'as opposed to batteries that run the avionics directly'.

[mvsgas]

I dont know about russian aircraft, but I do have a video of a fully loaded RAF jaguar taking off from a patch of grass, its what it was designed to do, hence the double wheels. And it was just a patch of grass, nothing special.

 

I wouldnt like to do such a thing with the 25t, thats for sure, but I am sure the 25 could handle such a deed with no problems.

 

I think I seen that video, but please correct me if I'm wrong, I do not remember seeing a combat load or external stores. I think it had practice bombs. I wonder if it even had full load of fuel. I wish I could see the preparation o f the field. I just don't see their weight being displaced enough not to sink in.

 

 

Thank you tho, that is a good comparison point

[mvsgas]

So how does the F-15 start if it has no batteries, and no external power? o.O

 

 

btw, MiG-29 electric systems

 

so, you have the option of startup on internal power, but external power is preffered

 

You pull a lever, mechanically link to hydraulic actuators. This starts the JFS . I can try to post the start system proses, I think I have a book around here that describe it. I just don't want to make you fall asleep. By the way thanks

Edited August 18, 2010 by mvsgas

[mvsgas]

Are you really interested? Say 'Thanks' to TriggerHappy69 and dl FLIGHT MANUAL MIG-29

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=959364&postcount=12

 

Cool thank you, I guess I will be doing some reading. That should cover the MIG-29G :thumbup:

[mvsgas]

Here you go Nscope

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/engines/97-jet-fuel-starter

[Fahhh]

Let's come back to the MiG - maybe you've noticed the gills-like openings on top of the fore-wing(don't know if my terminology is correct so sorry if I made a mistake...). And you've noticed they open when you start spooling your engines, while the main air-intakes are closed. This is a safety feature allowing the plane to taxi and take-off from roughly prepared air-fields. Modern variants use nets but back in the 70-80s, this was an unique design decision. I've been at air-shows where the Migs just taxi and take-off, and a bit later when the time for the F-16 comes, the entire runway is inspected for small stones or any other kind of debree. The gear is also rigid, I've seen photos of an emergency landing of a 29 in a grass field, and all went fine, the gear didn't collapse. There were also experiments I believe with Su-7/9s, equipped with skiis rather than wheels, to be used on grass fields. All this shows the depths the russian engineers tried to achieve to make their planes work on unprepared fields in all kind of weather.

 

The americans did it too, if you've watched Discovery's Great Planes about F-5, you can also see that small but agile fighter taking off and landing at grass fields. It's all about what the requirements are. The F-16 has a somewhat lightened and not very wide spread gear, which saves weight, but limits the load it can take. I hope you get my point...

 

There is a lot to talk about, maybe we should start with a certain plane and discuss its design and interesting features more widely. I'd prefer this to be the 29, as I happen to know some interesting things about it...

[mvsgas]

Fair enough, I think that could be a good idea.

About unprepared orations. I guess we start with MIG-29A

Well, I understand the landing gear is more robust. F-16 main problems is the mains. When the aircraft lands the mains just spreed outboard. This causes no problems when in paved surfaces and aircraft is moving forward, tire flexes and take the train on this. But in the dirt it would just dig in. Obviously landing gear is not that big nether ( even on later blocks) My main question is, can they take off with a full load of weapons? If not what are the weight limitations? Does it have to be on grass?

 

About the strake intakes for MIG-29

Are those things spring loaded?

I remember seeing a video of a MIG-29 flying at low speed and you can see the strake intake flapping, let me see if I can find that

 

Sorry I know I'm all over the place, I did not lie when I said I had a lot of questions :D

Edited August 18, 2010 by mvsgas

[Krippz]

Amended:

 

No more digressing guys.

[Groove]

I moved the OT chit-chat my very own "Groove's OT dump" thread.

[bumfire]

I think I seen that video, but please correct me if I'm wrong, I do not remember seeing a combat load or external stores. I think it had practice bombs. I wonder if it even had full load of fuel. I wish I could see the preparation o f the field. I just don't see their weight being displaced enough not to sink in.

 

 

Thank you tho, that is a good comparison point

 

 

Same video I have but different programme.

 

It does have something, looks like 2 things, on the centreline, what I dont know .

 

But you are correct, I thought it had stuff on the wings which it doesnt, but in anycase, it did get airborne, so in all probability it probably could get airborne with a small load, say 500Lb'er on each wing ? when working off of a rough strip.

 

It was designed to be able to do that, as that is the reason for its funky wheel setup, so I do think if push came to shove, it could get airborne with some sort of loadout.

[mvsgas]

I think they could work with limited loads. I guess it makes since, if you are operating on forward upreared field you main role would be CAS, I guess you don't need full load of fuel and weapons to be effective.

 

I'm reading MIG-29 manual that was posted. So far I learn

-MIG-29G has internal batteries

-Ground power is use to power electric motor that start APU

 

I wonder how similar the other version of the MIG are to this?

Also, how close if SU-25/27 etc to this? Hmm

Back to reading :book:

[Sov13t]

I always see Russian aircraft with ground power applied before engine start;

What is the external power used for?

 

Do Russian aircraft have batteries? F-15 does not have a batteries but F-16 and F-117 do.

 

I will comment on SU-27 systems, since I did not study others.

 

The 27 does have on board batteries and it is capable of spooling up without an external power source. The maximum number of spool ups available on batteries is three, after wards batteries have to be serviced/recharged.

 

It uses an auxiliary turbocharger to begin spooling the engines. Referred to as "TurboStarter" in Russian terminology. It operates for ~50 seconds after which the engine that is spooling should be roughly at 54% rpm. It is possible to spool both engines simultaneously.

 

EDIT: As far as electricity, the 27 uses both AC and DC. AC nominal readings: 115-120v, DC nominal readings: 27-29v.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Sov13t

[mvsgas]

Cool thanks

[Krippz]

I will comment on SU-27 systems, since I did not study others.

 

The 27 does have on board batteries and it is capable of spooling up without an external power source. The maximum number of spool ups available on batteries is three, after wards batteries have to be serviced/recharged.

 

It uses an auxiliary turbocharger to begin spooling the engines. Referred to as "TurboStarter" in Russian terminology. It operates for ~50 seconds after which the engine that is spooling should be roughly at 54% rpm. It is possible to spool both engines simultaneously.

 

EDIT: As far as electricity, the 27 uses both AC and DC. AC nominal readings: 115-120v, DC nominal readings: 27-29v.

 

Thanks for the knowledge!:thumbup:

[mvsgas]

Is pretty amazing how close in design F-16 and MIG-29G are.

So far, if the posted manual is accurate, the engine have similar and comparable engine compression and similar bleed air ports.

 

Intakes are very similar in concept to F-15 intakes also.

 

Thank guys this is very informative