Can fighters engage sea-skimming anti-ship and cruise missiles?

[Speed]

Hello,

I am building a mission, and as a DCS pilot, I am pretty ignorant of FC2 aircraft capabilities. I would like to know if human flown fighter aircraft in FC2, particularly the F-15, can detect and engage sea skimming anti-ship missiles and/or land attack cruise missiles? Ground and sea based air defenses can detect and engage them, so aircraft SHOULD be able to, but I need to confirm this with you experts here on this forum. And yes, I did search the forums, and I found nothing.

[Nate--IRL--]

I'm pretty sure the Su-33 can, with the R-27EM missile, the F-15 I'm not so sure about, but I don't see why not.

 

 

Nate

[VTJS17_Fire]

Yep, F-15 can detect and destroy such cruise missiles. Su-27, too.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

[GGTharos]

The Su-33 would be able to with R-27EM. This missile was never produced, so realistically, no. On the other hand, the Russian ships have seriously nasty close-in defenses.

MiG-31 should be able to, since its missiles and radar are designed for this task.

 

Anything that carries AMRAAM should be able to as well, as that missile has programming for this task. It is a possibility that R-77 has similar programming and hardware (it does in-game).

[VTJS17_Fire]

Ingame, you can kill them with AIM-9 and guns, too, because cruise missiles fly about Mach 0.9 (sea level), IIRC.

 

 

kind regards,

Fire

[Speed]

Too cool! Thanks for the replys guys! It's nice to see another little something in FC2/DCS that other sims have ignored. I'm gonna put in a touch of "fleet defender" in this mission! :joystick:

Edited August 18, 2010 by Speed

[Speed]

The Su-33 would be able to with R-27EM. This missile was never produced, so realistically, no. On the other hand, the Russian ships have seriously nasty close-in defenses.

MiG-31 should be able to, since its missiles and radar are designed for this task.

 

Anything that carries AMRAAM should be able to as well, as that missile has programming for this task. It is a possibility that R-77 has similar programming and hardware (it does in-game).

 

Just to be clear, my post concerns FC2 aircraft flown by humans, not real life aircraft. I imagine that even air to air missiles might be able to be engaged IRL (it would be hard to hit them I would think though). After all, something that big going up to mach 3 or 4 at one point has GOTTA show up on your radar.

 

Can the Su-33 load the R-27EM in FC2?

 

I haven't tested missile engagement with AI aircraft yet, but I imagine that the lack of a "missile" target type in ME's targeting options will preclude AI from participating in shooting down anti-ship and cruise missiles.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Speed

[GGTharos]

Just to be clear, my post concerns FC2 aircraft flown by humans, not real life aircraft. I imagine that even air to air missiles might be able to be engaged IRL (it would be hard to hit them I would think though). After all, something going mach 3 has GOTTA show up on your radar.

 

No, they cannot be engaged. They won't show up on radar at any reasonable distance, and it isn't like you will be pointing at them anyway. Nor will (real, not FC2) missile fuzes be able to trigger on them, assuming the missile even tracks.

 

For your concerns: Just letting you know in case you were considering a realistic scenario. In that case the Kuz would be defending the submarine fleet, using the Su-33's to shoot down anti-sub and anti-ship assets.

 

Can the Su-33 load the R-27EM in FC2?

 

Yes, I believe so.

 

I haven't tested missile engagement with AI aircraft yet, but I imagine that the lack of a "missile" target type in ME's targeting options will preclude AI from participating in shooting down anti-ship and cruise missiles.

 

Possibly, I haven't tried this either. Typically cruise/anti-ship missiles are handled by aircraft with specific capabilities, assuming those are available. More typically, those missiles are handled by IADS or AEGIS, or other anti-air capability, while the aircraft try to destroy the carriers as far out as possible.

[Speed]

No, they cannot be engaged. They won't show up on radar at any reasonable distance, and it isn't like you will be pointing at them anyway. Nor will (real, not FC2) missile fuzes be able to trigger on them, assuming the missile even tracks.

I donno, I have a hard time believing that modern air to air radars wouldn't be able to see AAMs. It's all highly classified anyway, so aren't we just guessing on that though? But you may have a good point about missile fuzes- none would be designed for destroying AAMs. But if missile fuzes were tailored to be able to destroy supersonic low RCS targets, perhaps they could destroy an AAM as well. As far as the WISDOM of engaging AAMs, yea, I agree, even if you could it would be stupid to try unless you had VERY high confidence in your missile :)

 

For your concerns: Just letting you know in case you were considering a realistic scenario. In that case the Kuz would be defending the submarine fleet, using the Su-33's to shoot down anti-sub and anti-ship assets.

What's a "Kuz"? 'Round here, that's someone with common ancestory with you who's not a sibling or parent :)

 

And no, my scenario isn't all that realistic, the Ka-50s particpate in the fleet battle (IRL, any helo would of course be detected and shot down long before it could get within 15km of the enemy fleet). But I tested it yesterday, and it's hella fun, so who cares :)

 

Edit: OH, Kuz = Kuznetsov. Dang you and your shorthand! It was bad enough that it took me a while to figure out that an "ALBATROSS" was really a Grisha, a "REZKY" was really a Krivak, and a "Moskva" was really a Slava.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Speed

[GGTharos]

Believe it. They are geared to perform a very different sort of job. There are many reasons to filter out a missile, RCS non-withstanding. Given loft trajectories they're also just plain likely to be outside of the radar's ability to see them.

 

As fuzes ... no, I'm not guessing. Seriously, when did you last hear of anyone so much as /attempting/ to shoot down an AAM or SAM? ;)

It simply is not done, not by aircraft anyway (some SAMs are capable of shooting down other large SAMs, and some ARMs).

 

I donno, I have a hard time believing that modern air to air radars wouldn't be able to see AAMs. It's all highly classified anyway, so aren't we just guessing on that though? But you may have a good point about missile fuzes- none would be designed for destroying AAMs. But if missile fuzes were tailored to be able to destroy supersonic low RCS targets, perhaps they could destroy an AAM as well. As far as the WISDOM of engaging AAMs, yea, I agree, even if you could it would be stupid to try unless you had VERY high confidence in your missile :)

 

Kuznetzov. Russian Aircraft Carrier. Home of the Su-33.

 

What's a "Kuz"? 'Round here, that's someone with common ancestory with you who's not a sibling or parent :)

 

You might be surprised. A number of helicopters are capable of carrying small anti-ship missiles, and are often used to hunt submarines as well. A lot of navies employ boats which can be destroyed by weapons other than dedicated anti-ship weapons.

You are correct that a Ka-50 engaging even a corvette is probably ludicrous, at the least from the standpoint that it doesn't really have the weapons to deal with such a target.

 

And no, my scenario isn't all that realistic, the Ka-50s particpate in the fleet battle (IRL, any helo would of course be detected and shot down long before it could get within 15km of the enemy fleet). But I tested it yesterday, and it's hella fun, so who cares :)

 

Ah yep, hehe :D

 

Edit: OH, Kuz = Kuznetsov. Dang you and your shorthand! It was bad enough that it took me a while to figure out that an "ALBATROSS" was really a Grisha, a "REZKY" was really a Krivak, and a "Moskva" was really a Slava.

[Speed]

Believe it. They are geared to perform a very different sort of job. There are many reasons to filter out a missile, RCS non-withstanding. Given loft trajectories they're also just plain likely to be outside of the radar's ability to see them.

 

As fuzes ... no, I'm not guessing. Seriously, when did you last hear of anyone so much as /attempting/ to shoot down an AAM or SAM? ;)

It simply is not done, not by aircraft anyway (some SAMs are capable of shooting down other large SAMs, and some ARMs).

 

Well, at BVR ranges, it may be very difficult to near impossible to spot a missile launch, depending on whether it was at night, how smokeless the motor might be, and how much BVR you really are. I imagine a radar that would detect AAM launches by enemy aircraft would be very useful. Maybe not graphicly display them on the radar, but some kind of indication I think would be nice. Radars are heavily classified, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was one of their classified abilities.

 

And IF AAMs DO have the capability to hit supersonic ASMs, they should also have the capability to at least hit some large AAMs (even if there aren't many large AAMs still fielded). Again, it would be very stupid to do so. Rather than it being impossible, why couldn't THAT be why you never hear about it?

 

You might be surprised. A number of helicopters are capable of carrying small anti-ship missiles, and are often used to hunt submarines as well. A lot of navies employ boats which can be destroyed by weapons other than dedicated anti-ship weapons.

You are correct that a Ka-50 engaging even a corvette is probably ludicrous, at the least from the standpoint that it doesn't really have the weapons to deal with such a target.

 

Yea, but I seriously doubt an SH-60 armed with ASMs would be sent to engage a Kirov class CGN like in my mission :) I have read they sank alot of Iraqi ships in Gulf War I, but those were Osas! IRL, I can't imagine it would be possible to approach a Kirov or Neustrashimy within 15km in a helo, no matter your altitude, without being shot down.

 

BTW, I am very impressed with naval modelling in DCS! For a sim that is all about land combat, the ships sure have alot of capabilities. Here's to hoping that we get the ability to spawn aircraft on frigates, and more capable carriers soon!

Edited August 18, 2010 by Speed

[GGTharos]

Well, at BVR ranges, it may be very difficult to near impossible to spot a missile launch, depending on whether it was at night, how smokeless the motor might be, and how much BVR you really are. I imagine a radar that would detect AAM launches by enemy aircraft would be very useful. Maybe not graphicly display them on the radar, but some kind of indication I think would be nice. Radars are heavily classified, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was one of their classified abilities.

 

I'm sure radars can probably see a missile separation, it's been done for a long time, IIRC - but automated radars don't deal with this - automated radars try their best to show you your target, not his missiles.

And I think you need to take the existence of RWRs as a sign when it comes to what a radar can do about detecting missiles.

 

And IF AAMs DO have the capability to hit supersonic ASMs, they should also have the capability to at least hit some large AAMs (even if there aren't many large AAMs still fielded). Again, it would be very stupid to do so. Rather than it being impossible, why couldn't THAT be why you never hear about it?

No, they should not. AAMs are far smaller, and far faster typically. There's quite a huge difference in the RCS when it comes to both tracking and fuzing, not to mention the closure. It has not been done, it has not been attempted, and it is not even a glimmer in the eye of some engineer in being attempted. Sorry. :)

 

Yea, but I seriously doubt an SH-60 armed with ASMs would be sent to engage a Kirov class CGN like in my mission :) I have read they sank alot of Iraqi ships in Gulf War I, but those were Osas! IRL, I can't imagine it would be possible to approach a Kirov or Neustrashimy within 15km in a helo, no matter your altitude, without being shot down.

I think you'd be looking at A-6/F-18's spamming harpoons and Walleye's in this situation. Or possibly HARMs, and the helos could get in to help out at that point - but mainly the job of a heli is to hunt subs.

[Exorcet]

Just in case you wanted more feedback, yes fighters do engage cruise missiles, I've made quite a few missions based on intercepting CM's, and the AI I put defending the Carriers usually does a better job than I do.

 

However, I've noticed some odd behavior with the Russian missiles (US ones don't seem to act the same). They don't always seen the terrain ahead of them, and sometimes crash into mountains. It may cut down on headaches if you launch them over sea of flat ground.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Exorcet

[Renato71]

In FC-ONE, I was able to lock and shoot down H-58 with R-27R/ER. Here are some pics:

http://lockonhr.com/forum/index.php?topic=2002.0

 

I guess it can be done with any missile that AI can shoot at, like H-29T.

I have not tried with other missiles.

 

I have not tried in FC2.

[Speed]

Cool! Thanks for all the help guys. Right now, I'm dealing with CIWS basically making the server lock up if I put more than about 3 or 4 CIWS capable ships in one spot. I also figured out something cool- if I put an A-50 WAY back in the back corner of the map, I can make enemy ships fire barrages of anti-ship missiles all the way out to their max engagement range for as long as the A-50 is activated :) Gonna be great setting up coordinated ASM attacks.

[Chewie]

I wish we could use the Harpoon anti-ship missile. Seems like they are modeled along with a bunch of other missiles in the game but they are unusable.

[EtherealN]

Well, there's no aircraft modeled as flyable that can use the Harpoon IRL. Would need such an aircraft first.