Instrument Landing System Navigation, Track included

[InFireBaptize]

Hi all,

New to FC2.0 and need you :helpsmilie:

 

After practicing, i managed to land following the instructions on the manual. Please have a look at my track and advise what did i do wrong!

 

Before landing i switched to ILNS but i never got the localizer bar nor the glide slope bar on the HUD.

 

Off topic: Before i leave the runway, i like to know the location of the runway so when i need to go back i won't struggle finding it, how to do that?

MyFirstLanding.trk

[Sarge55]

Hi Fire,

 

You didn't get the localizer because you approached from the wrong direction. Once you take off you should fly a circut at 1500' to get to the approach point. BTW-You clipped some wires you were so low. If you noticed in your HUD after you landed you still had another 4.4nm to get to the waypoint the ILNS was directing you to.

 

When you set ILNS there are two steps, one is to fly to a point which positions you to intercept the localizer signal then it switches to the landing phase to guide you onto the runway.

 

To find your airfield just switch to ILNS and it will guide you, you can also cycle airfields once in ILNS mode by hitting the waypoint button. Or, you can use comms and request homeplate from AWACs.

 

Search the forums for a pdf map of the airfields, it also indicates the orientation of the airfields.

 

Good luck

[vanir]

I'm a beginner too but after some initial mishaps landing on ILS I decided to take a step back and go old school.

I love immersion and try to give LOMAC full suspension of disbelief (helped remarkably with FC2). And in military pilot training they don't just sign you up and shove you into a supersonic fighter, you learn trainers, then conversion trainers and finally the front line fighters.

 

So I whipped out my IL2 and gave my prop landings a revision. Pulled LOMAC out again and flew the Su-25 doing visual landings. Then jumped in the MiG-29G for some more visual landings, finally over to the Flankers for visual landings.

Basically I ignored ILS for a bit even when the cues are on the HUD and revised basic flight manoeuvres by the seat of the pants.

 

Then after all that I started using the ILS cues but just as an additional guideline to visual landings. If my own judgement departs what the ILS is telling me, I ignore the ILS and have a much easier time landing.

It's in poor weather or night that suddenly I'm very thankful for the ILS, and you can land using no other reference (that's what it's designed for), but it's always nail-biting stuff.

 

The mistake I think, was first time I started doing landings in LOMAC being inexperienced, I was treating the ILS as though it would land the plane for me. But the truth is the pilot has to fly the plane and the instruments just help, if the instruments konked out the pilot still has to fly the plane and shouldn't even skip a beat. That's because he's only using the instruments to enhance his own judgement, not replace it.

 

You also sound like you should review the FC2 manual about ILS landings again. If using the mission editor you should make a final waypoint for approach, set at something like 10km from runway at 1200m and a good approach vector.

When actually flying the mission and coming into land at something like 4km from the runway you will pass over the ILS antennae for the airfield, all modern military airfields already have them and it's not a waypoint you put in the mission yourself.

Your nav mode should switch from enroute or landing (return mode) to ILS automatically when you pass the antennae, a few kilometres from the runway. That's when the cues will appear on the HUD. Just following your waypoints will direct you to it. You can switch to ILS mode manually and that'll direct you to the localiser directly, just like a waypoint but you should already be on a good approach path when you reach it so circle it wide and cross it towards the runway ready for landing if you doing that.

 

When you want to find an airfield to land and you're just flying around the map, switch nav modes from enroute to return and you can cycle through airfields on the HDD and check their distance and location using your instruments. Again review the FC2 manual to learn how to do this. There's a lot of schooling to be a fighter pilot in the real world obviously, and one would expect a bit of genuine schooling involved in any good sim.

 

If you get desperate you can use the theatre view (F11 I think), which will show where you are on the area map. Try to stay in the cockpit and learn to use your instruments and HDD for better immersion though.

 

I haven't looked at your track file but hopefully this answers your questions.

Edited September 15, 2010 by vanir

[hassata]

That's because he's only using the instruments to enhance his own judgement, not replace it.

 

I don't know about that. In IFR, you are trained to trust the instruments no matter what your senses are telling you. I kind of follow your training syllabus, flying and navigating in the SF260 then the L-39 in FSX, before transitioning to the Su-25T.

 

One thing which you can use as a final check ride is the bad weather hard carrier landing in Phantom's training pack (http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=56163). To think pilots actually do this in real life in humbling. I watched an interview with a pilot who said who ever invented 0/0 carrier landings should be shot lol. I actually think it takes about aqs much courage to bo on the ship during those kind of evolutions as it does to be in the pit.

 

P.S. The training pack is an indispensable training tool and is highly recommended. OPhantom has one for BS, if you ever get into that.

[vanir]

Good point, that was a bad choice of words. My context is only not to rely on the ILS to land the plane for you unless there's no choice. Certainly I land the plane much better and safer in day/good-vis using my own judgement which will depart the ILS cues. Basically I just land it like a prop beast but at 100IAS faster.

 

I've just watched a dvd called Speed and Angels which is a documentary about two USN Tomcat pilots fresh out of academy, goes through their Top Gun training, carrier qualification and to deployment in the Gulf.

During that they showed accident footage of carrier landings to sober their newbie excitement. One after the other Tomcats slamming into the stern, missing the wires and going off the deck, hitting other aircraft, just doing weird things like coming in clean then suddenly cartwheeling to the side and going submarine, A-6's too, off the end and into the drink, every time the crew was killed.

They wanted to impress on the new pilots just how dangerous carrier landings are, and just how common fatalities doing it are. The first female Tomcat pilot, killed a couple of years before in a landing attempt. Their instructor said look at five other navy pilots, one of you is going to be dead in a year.

 

The guy Tomcat pilot in this documentary said the same thing about 0/0 carrier landings (I assume you mean night landings under any weather), whoever invented it should be shot.

Also mentioned the USN is the only navy in the world which routinely practises night carrier operations.

[InFireBaptize]

Will try again tonight

 

excellent points all, each one of you raised a good point. I will read your post again and look at manual then give it a try.

 

BTW, i ordered the movie Speed & Angels from Amazon, looks like a good movie.

 

Thank you.

[mvsgas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o34Kq8eE740&feature=related

you can find the rest in you tube

[InFireBaptize]

you can find the rest in you tube

 

Thank you, i appreciate the link but movies like this i would rather have a nice DVD cover to look at in my movies library.

[InFireBaptize]

You didn't get the localizer because you approached from the wrong direction. Once you take off you should fly a circut at 1500' to get to the approach point. BTW-You clipped some wires you were so low. If you noticed in your HUD after you landed you still had another 4.4nm to get to the waypoint the ILNS was directing you to.

 

Hi Sarge, thanks for taking the time to watch the track; however:

 

1) I don’t understand wrong direction? Why does it matter which direction I approach the runway? You mean I landed at the end of the runway and that’s why I have another 4.4nm?

2) No where in the manual does it say I have to fly around the airfield at 1500’!

3) None of the above are in the manual? How am I suppose to figure these out on my own!!

 

To find your airfield just switch to ILNS and it will guide you, you can also cycle airfields once in ILNS mode by hitting the waypoint button. Or, you can use comms and request homeplate from AWACs.

Great tips, thank you. Again nothing in the manual regarding the above.

 

Search the forums for a pdf map of the airfields, it also indicates the orientation of the airfields.

I will thanks.

 

 

Good luck

Thank you, you have explained landing so well that I wouldn’t have figured it out myself. By the way, i fly the F-15C. Edited September 15, 2010 by InFireBaptize

[nomdeplume]

1) I don’t understand wrong direction? Why does it matter which direction I approach the runway? You mean I landed at the end of the runway and that’s why I have another 4.4nm?

 

Each runway has an operating direction, which essentially means you take off and land in the same direction. In the real world this is usually based on the wind direction (take-off/landing into the wind). In the game, some of the airfields have multiple directions depending on the wind set for that mission, some don't. But the wind direction doesn't change during a mission.

 

If you use the radio to request landing from the tower, they'll tell you which runway to land on (i.e. landing direction).

 

2) No where in the manual does it say I have to fly around the airfield at 1500’!

I think that was just a suggestion. Seems a little low to me, but whatever. No magic figure as far as I'm aware.

[InFireBaptize]

Each runway has an operating direction, which essentially means you take off and land in the same direction. In the real world this is usually based on the wind direction (take-off/landing into the wind). In the game, some of the airfields have multiple directions depending on the wind set for that mission, some don't. But the wind direction doesn't change during a mission.

 

If you use the radio to request landing from the tower, they'll tell you which runway to land on (i.e. landing direction).

 

I like that, add more to the challenge and the atmosphere.

 

I think that was just a suggestion. Seems a little low to me, but whatever. No magic figure as far as I'm aware.

Yea, i searched the pdf manual but couldn't find anything about it.

 

Thanks again :thumbup:

[hassata]

Speed and angels is top stuff. This is highly, highly recommended also:

 

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/jetstream/

 

Here's some horrific footage :( :

 

The guy I saw talking about 0/0 had just completed a landing in a snow storm with complete white out conditions. In his HUD tape, you could see he literally had less than a second to make a last adjustment away from the aircraft parked less than fifteen feet on his right. He looked like he just Sh*t his pants when he gave the interview.

[Sarge55]

Hi InFireBaptize,

 

What NomdePlume said regarding the direction/approach.

 

And yes the 1500' was a suggestion, I find it a good height for me to start my approach and easy to see the runway from a distance (good weather).

 

I'll see if I can find that .pdf of airfields for you. I'm not at home right now so it'll be a day or so.

[Moa]

1500 feet is not unusual for a 'circuit' altitude (used in the real world). Low enough that the descent doesn't have to be too steep, and high enough that there is some safety margin. If you start from this altitude at a reasonable speed (maybe 350 km/h or 200 knots) then you'll find landing much easier.

 

Many new people try landing at 450 knots from 10000 feet while 5 km from the airbase since they don't know reasonable numbers. So, 1500 feet over head the base at 200 knots is good to start with. Just remember to extend a little before turning on your base leg to land, a good rule of thumb is that the runway end you will land on should be behind the trailing edge of the wing when you look toward the runway.

[aaron886]

If you can get comfortable with it, 1000 is a good number for fast jets, you'll see that pretty universally. Try to fly consistent airspeed values and use similar bank angles when making pattern turns to achieve consistent lineups.

 

Most fast jets are flown into a break, or "overhead break," because of the high speeds they maneuver at. A rectangular pattern isn't very comfortable or efficient in a jet because of the large space it would take up.

 

As far as the Navy is concerned (USN,) an overhead break at a field would be performed at 1000 feet and about 400 knots. The break would be about 4G or higher, whatever is required to roll-out onto the downwind heading still at 1000 feet, and 1.3 nautical miles abeam the runway. This first turn, called "the break," is used to scrub off excess airspeed and decelerate to gear extension speed, which is usually around 250 knots. Use the airbrake as necessary in the break to get to this airspeed, then maintain it once gear is down on the downwind leg. The point at which you are passing your touchdown point on the downwind leg is called the "abeam" point, and is where the action starts. Here the pilot begins to decelerate and add approach flaps as required for the aircraft. At about 5-10 seconds past the abeam point, the pilot starts his turn towards the runway, at about 30 degrees of bank. By 90 degrees of turn (called "The 90,") the pilot should be "on speed," meaning he's at his desired final approach speed, which is dictated by weight. (More precisely, angle of attack.) In LO, you cant go wrong with 160-170 in the Eagle. As you arrive on the final approach course, you should be on a 3 degree glideslope (3.5 for carrier aircraft.) Ideally, you'd keep a fairly tight pattern with about a 15 second final approach. This means you need to arrive at a good altitude when you roll out on final. For a 15-second final, aim to roll-out at 350 feet AGL.

 

 

In IMC (instrument conditions,) it's all very dictated by ATC (air traffic control) in real life. In real life, every airport has specific plans called "approaches" that utilize different navigational aids like ILS, VOR, ADF, or TACAN. (And more and more GPS these days.) This pretty much means you just "make it up as you go" in Lock On. Get yourself close to the approach end of the runway, maybe 3 or 4 nm out, and at 3000 feet AGL. That's a good starting point for intercepting the ILS.

 

 

Common mistakes for new sim pilots learning to land usually include:

- Excessively low or steep approach angle. (Low is more typical)

- High approach speed.

- Late or no flare. (Unless you're landing on a boat! :D)

- Missed centerline.

 

 

I threw together a track for you, not particularly well flown. It's an overhead break as described above. I flipped on the ILS as I turned to final to show you where I ended up on the glideslope... I got lucky and was right about at 3 degrees. You might notice my flare and touchdown weren't very confident... I don't do those very often. :D Hope this helps! Good luck. :)

 

Regards,

Beaker

http://www.virtualblueangels.net

overheadbreak_help.trk

Edited September 15, 2010 by aaron886

[hassata]

Take a look at this master at work:

 

[aaron886]

I've seen that. He's not messing around on his last tour! Gettin in his G while he can. :D

[bumfire]

Speed and angels is top stuff. This is highly, highly recommended also:

 

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/jetstream/

 

Here's some horrific footage :( :

 

The guy I saw talking about 0/0 had just completed a landing in a snow storm with complete white out conditions. In his HUD tape, you could see he literally had less than a second to make a last adjustment away from the aircraft parked less than fifteen feet on his right. He looked like he just Sh*t his pants when he gave the interview.

 

That youtube link crash, supposedly it was caused by a broken/malfunctioning AoA meter, or something similar.

 

The newbie pilot was told to wave off, his cockpit displays showed that he was doing everything correctly and that he was correctly positioned to abort the landing, but since the AoA meter was showing the wrong reading, the plane stalled and flipped.

 

Had the AoA meter showed the correct reading, that accident probably would not of happened.

[Moa]

aaron886 you're very nearly right.

 

The US Navy uses 800 feet on downwind until abeam and then 400 feet on final at 3/4 mile astern of the carrier. Final approach speed is 140-160 knots depending on aircraft and loaded weight (fuel and ammo left). of course, the Navy pilots are exceptionally good so they have a lower safety margin than other pilots are used to.

 

This info comes from the carrier-qualified former commander of the US Navy undergraduate pilot squadron VT-2 (a member of VNAO and known to these forums as "Pop"). If I remember I'll also find the relevant page of the NATOPS manual that specifies these values.

 

ps. as always, don't forget to trim your aircraft in the circuit.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Moa

[aaron886]

aaron886 you're very nearly right.

 

The US Navy uses 800 feet on downwind until abeam and then 400 feet on final at 3/4 mile astern of the carrier. Final approach speed is 140-160 knots depending on aircraft and loaded weight (fuel and ammo left). of course, the Navy pilots are exceptionally good so they have a lower safety margin than other pilots are used to.

 

This info comes from the carrier-qualified former commander of the US Navy undergraduate pilot squadron VT-2 (a member of VNAO and known to these forums as "Pop"). If I remember I'll also find the relevant page of the NATOPS manual that specifies these values.

 

ps. as always, don't forget to trim your aircraft in the circuit.

 

Hey Moa,

 

 

I do believe that 800 feet is correct for a carrier break, but at the field it's typical to use 1000 feet. I may be crazy. I was also under the impression that it's expected to be at 450 feet at the 90, and "325-375" feet at the start. This may differ from community to community, and I don't know what aircraft Pop flew, but it wouldn't hurt to have him chime in here! :) Finally, the airspeed I noted was directed towards the Eagle in LO, which needs a little more airspeed than 140 knots to actually flare.

 

EDIT: Whoops, I went 200 feet the wrong way! It's 600 feet at the field for a normal VFR recovery. That'll teach me to do a little better research. :smartass:

 

 

As far as trimming goes, I normally would trim profusely, but my stick is a custom-built center stick with constant full-forward pull like the Blues use during their demo. It's a bit of a pain to adjust the tension to center like a fleet Hornet, so I don't usually mess with it. On a side note, the trim is really coarse in the Lock On F-15... pretty annoying.

Edited September 16, 2010 by aaron886

[Avilator]

That youtube link crash, supposedly it was caused by a broken/malfunctioning AoA meter, or something similar.

 

The newbie pilot was told to wave off, his cockpit displays showed that he was doing everything correctly and that he was correctly positioned to abort the landing, but since the AoA meter was showing the wrong reading, the plane stalled and flipped.

 

Had the AoA meter showed the correct reading, that accident probably would not of happened.

 

It was installed backwards. It was indicating fast when he was slow. In the vid you can hear the LSO telling him to correct his speed. The pilot followed his AoA meter, as he should have, and ended up in the region of reversed command.

[InFireBaptize]

 

 

I threw together a track for you, not particularly well flown. It's an overhead break as described above. I flipped on the ILS as I turned to final to show you where I ended up on the glideslope... I got lucky and was right about at 3 degrees. You might notice my flare and touchdown weren't very confident... I don't do those very often. :D Hope this helps! Good luck. :)

 

Regards,

Beaker

http://www.virtualblueangels.net

 

Thanks for the track, i looked at it but haven't had the time to practice yesterday. I see you guys mention circuit as in circle?

[InFireBaptize]

Speed and angels is top stuff. This is highly, highly recommended also:

 

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/jetstream/

 

Here's some horrific footage :( :

 

The guy I saw talking about 0/0 had just completed a landing in a snow storm with complete white out conditions. In his HUD tape, you could see he literally had less than a second to make a last adjustment away from the aircraft parked less than fifteen feet on his right. He looked like he just Sh*t his pants when he gave the interview.

 

I thought i saw his body burning on the deck? I don't understand why the weren't prepared for it! like fire hoses, etc...., they were so panicky and slow in getting water out there!

[aaron886]

Thanks for the track, i looked at it but haven't had the time to practice yesterday. I see you guys mention circuit as in circle?

 

 

Not quite... it should make sense if you check the track. It's an oval, really.

[WH_Boomer]

Copied from the A-10 Flight Manual.

 

 

This of course is a standard VFR approach. Following the ILS will give you guidance information even in 0-0 conditions. We will be covering this in our Training Module for our members that are interested in flying DCS:A-10C with us. ;)

 

~S~