evasive maneuvering for F-15

[tmdgm]

Playing FC 1 and have always like the eagle. Haven't played in a while and coming back. However one thing I still struggle with is the evasive maneuvering in the F-15. When I f-pole an incoming missile, i try to pull back and barrel roll and the plane can sometimes be so unresponsive. It's like pulling back on an airline transport 747. Sluggish. I usually try to be at 400-450. I can see when I'm 350 or less or >500, but it can be very slow to respond. It seems inconsistent as well, sometimes at 450, it pulls back ok, other times ferget it. Seems worse at higher altitudes.

 

is there something i'm missing? Maybe pulling back on the stick too hard? maybe need to be closer to 500?

[Dimebag1]

How high exactly are you when the performance is sluggish? The higher up you are the harder it will be to perform maneuvers due to the air being thinner, which means less air flowing around the wing to give you lift for rolls and climbs.

[tmdgm]

How high exactly are you when the performance is sluggish? The higher up you are the harder it will be to perform maneuvers due to the air being thinner, which means less air flowing around the wing to give you lift for rolls and climbs.

 

I'm usually anywhere from sea lvl to 20k. Do I have the corner speed correct? Is there a maximum do not pull up into a loop altitude?

[Dimebag1]

I'm not sure exactly what the corner speed for the f-15, the manual mentions for a sustained turn (that is one where airspeed remains the same with maximum continuous turn rate) airspeed can be anywhere from 600-1000km/hr, not sure how many kts that is. Just make sure you apply thrust when in the turn and don't let your airspeed drop too low. Are you also trying to beam these missiles, as you might have some luck there depending on the range of the missile from launch? I can't say I rely much on barrel rolling for missile evasion.

[EtherealN]

Corner speed is ~450 knots.

 

Dimebag, as long as the speeds he is reporting are Indicated (which they most likely are unless he's reading them off of his VSD or something like that), the higher altitude doesn't matter as much since there will be the same amount of air (measured in mass) at 450 knots IAS at any altitude. (Cross-ref Indicated AirSpeed/IAS and True AirSpeed/TAS.) I've never run the numbers on how inertia comes into play here though.

 

This was FC1 btw, right?

 

Oh, and yeah, barrel-rolling missiles is not the way to go. Notch them if possible and you'll be good and not have to rely on a hairy timed maneuver.

[tmdgm]

Corner speed is ~450 knots.

 

This was FC1 btw, right?

 

Oh, and yeah, barrel-rolling missiles is not the way to go. Notch them if possible and you'll be good and not have to rely on a hairy timed maneuver.

 

Yup, FC1.

 

I always thought barrel rolling when missile is close was the preferred method. What is "notching"?

 

This is what I do as soon a I get a missile launch. Beam the missile and start diving. If the missile is far enough away, I start doing vertical S maneuvers, like a roller coaster. Then, when the missile is within 1.5 nm, I pull back on the stick and rudder over. This is where I get inconsistent response from the eagle. Sometimes she pulls back ok and feels responsive. Other times, it's like a 747 with speeds in the 450 range.

[Geskes]

Its an F-16 but still good movie to go with this thread. Not for the faint-hearted. Enjoy!

 

[EtherealN]

tmdgm,

 

Barrel rolling at an incoming missile works in FC1 due to some modeling deficiencies, this is corrected in FC2. So while it works in FC1 if you time it right you should learn notching since that is the "real" method.

 

"Notching" is short for using the "Look-Down Clutter Notch". This is caused by how a pulse-doppler radar works to get a look-down shoot-down capability - it has a "notch" in the software that it uses to filter out the ground - if you then move your aircraft such that you are lower than the enemy (or lower than the enemy missile, if it is an active) and move perpendicular to them, you'll have the same relative motion to/from the enemy as the ground under you, and his radar will filter you out as being part of the ground. With good training you can launch your missile, crank, and when the enemy counter-launches you can very quickly pop "into the notch" for just a few seconds and then turn back on the offensive. Active missiles -might- reaqcuire you, but then you just dip back into the notch real quick again or disengage to set up a new and advantageous position.

 

Unfortunately I'm unsure of what would cause the behaviour you are observing - back in FC1 I was a Frog pilot so the F15 I know is all from FC2 where I don't think I've observed what you are observing (but I don't try barrel-rolling enemy missiles either, since that doesn't really work).

 

Vertical S is not what I would do though - all that really does is to let the enemy close in further on you while you are burning energy through pulling G's. In the F-15 you really want to keep your distance to the enemy, since a MiG or Flanker in close range can cause you all kinds of trouble.

[Breakshot]

Barrel rolling at an incoming missile works in FC1 due to some modeling deficiencies, this is corrected in FC2.

 

Unfortunately this is not entirely true... Lets face it, this was only "corrected", if you can even say this, exclusively for the Aim-120s, and perhaps to some degree 77s and Aim-7s as all of those have gotten the boosted fuse and explosive parameters...

 

As for all the standard Russian missiles.... well lets just say the F15 should have no problems doing the same exact mambo jumbo barrel rolling as in FC1 in order to defeat them. You will see them ERs/ETs/73s etc. fly right by with impunity while u are in a barrel roll, and even if they do explode, its usually minor proximity damage at best...

 

Its funny because the F15 was the easiest platform to pull these sorts of exploits in FC1, and as it stands now it has only gotten easier for it in FC2, IMO - of course, as long as one does not fight an equally armed opponent who would pack active missiles as well... if that makes any sense :)

Edited November 26, 2010 by Breakshot

[RIPTIDE]

Unfortunately this is not entirely true... Lets face it, this was only "corrected", if you can even say this, exclusively for the Aim-120s, and perhaps to some degree 77s and Aim-7s as all of those have gotten the boosted fuse and explosive parameters...

 

As for all the standard Russian missiles.... well lets just say the F15 should have no problems doing the same exact mambo jumbo barrel rolling as in FC1 in order to defeat them. You will see them ERs/ETs/73s etc. fly right by with impunity while u are in a barrel roll, and even if they do explode, its usually minor proximity damage at best...

 

Its funny because the F15 was the easiest platform to pull these sorts of exploits in FC1, and as it stands now it has only gotten easier for it in FC2, IMO - of course, as long as one does not fight an equally armed opponent who would pack active missiles as well... if that makes any sense :)

 

I'm noticing especially with the ER's that many of my MP * near misses* are turned into hits when I play back the track. This tells me that besides the track recording system is fubar, its also telling me something is wrong with the modelling of the 27ER. I think they messed it up. In fact I'd say its strong enough of a flaw to be a game changer. So, Breakshot, you should just give up and join me with the rest of the nOObs and fly the Fifteenausarus. ;)

[GGTharos]

Track or ACMI?

 

The track won't play back exactly the same as the MP experience due to effects of playing online. The track does not record the position of a missile at every point in time for example, so what you will get in a track is the same effect as if an AI was launching the missile at you in SP when playing back (or at least it should in most cases).

If the missile misses because of relatively small error caused by latency, you might indeed see a hit when playing back a track. This is a track + netcode issue, not an R-27 issue.

[RIPTIDE]

Track or ACMI?

 

The track won't play back exactly the same as the MP experience due to effects of playing online. The track does not record the position of a missile at every point in time for example, so what you will get in a track is the same effect as if an AI was launching the missile at you in SP when playing back (or at least it should in most cases).

If the missile misses because of relatively small error caused by latency, you might indeed see a hit when playing back a track. This is a track + netcode issue, not an R-27 issue.

So what you're saying is that all things been equal, my ER misses should be hits if the track interprets them as hits, because I playback without the netcode issues. That's what I interpret it as. Strangely, this seems to effect the SARH more. I would think that the directional warhead settings in the other missiles were set to compensate for this netcode issue and then somebody forgot about the SARH's. Or just left them alone... Either way... we're back to the model and what was put in to compensate for such things. ;)

 

EDIT: A 30 meg ACMI file uploading.

[GGTharos]

So what you're saying is that all things been equal, my ER misses should be hits if the track interprets them as hits, because I playback without the netcode issues. That's what I interpret it as. Strangely, this seems to effect the SARH more.

 

Shorter fuze range. To our surprise it was much shorter in RL than we had imagied :P

Yes, I think you'd see more hits if it wasn't for latency.

 

I would think that the directional warhead settings in the other missiles were set to compensate for this netcode issue and then somebody forgot about the SARH's.

 

No, they were set to match data. It had zip, zilch squat and nada to do with compensating for netcode issues. There WAS a modification to do this, but it was pulled back by the devs. And again, we also found out that RL fuze funtionality of the R-27 was somewhat dissapointing by comparison.

 

Or just left them alone... Either way... we're back to the model and what was put in to compensate for such things. ;)

 

EDIT: A 30 meg ACMI file uploading.

 

You're making assumptions based on nothing, and you're wrong.

The R-27's weren't touched a whole lot, and in fact I don't think they've changed a lot in basic parameters from the FC1 implementation with the exception of better resistance to counter-measures. No, it isn't as good as we wanted it to be (eg. practically zero sensitivity to CM's at certain aspects, especially forward of the 2-10 position). Any real improvements to missiles will have to wait for DCS which in theory should give them new flight physics, new guidance capability, etc.

 

The LO/FC missiles have some issues in guidance, CM rejection and flight physics that are known and at the same time not really worth discussing - they're going to remain as they are.

[RIPTIDE]

Shorter fuze range. To our surprise it was much shorter in RL than we had imagied :P

Yes, I think you'd see more hits if it wasn't for latency.

Well, not to sound cynical, but RL is not always a constant I've found out if you data mine the forum long and hard enough. :P

 

No, they were set to match data. It had zip, zilch squat and nada to do with compensating for netcode issues. There WAS a modification to do this, but it was pulled back by the devs. And again, we also found out that RL fuze funtionality of the R-27 was somewhat dissapointing by comparison.

It was worth a shot and its heartening to know that I follow some brain patterns of what the Devs were thinking.

 

 

You're making assumptions based on nothing, and you're wrong.

The R-27's weren't touched a whole lot, and in fact I don't think they've changed a lot in basic parameters from the FC1 implementation with the exception of better resistance to counter-measures. No, it isn't as good as we wanted it to be (eg. practically zero sensitivity to CM's at certain aspects, especially forward of the 2-10 position). Any real improvements to missiles will have to wait for DCS which in theory should give them new flight physics, new guidance capability, etc.

consider their more aggressive motor to be a bit more touched than 'weren't touched a whole lot'. But maybe that's just me. :P

 

The LO/FC missiles have some issues in guidance, CM rejection and flight physics that are known and at the same time not really worth discussing - they're going to remain as they are.

Ya, that's a given.:thumbup:

 

 

I'll PM you the acmi. I haven't built up the effort to script out peoples names. I rared it down to 7megs. You'll find lots of strange things on that acmi. And yes, they are consistent with what the Track was showing..

[GGTharos]

Well, not to sound cynical, but RL is not always a constant I've found out if you data mine the forum long and hard enough. :P

 

No, there's always new information that comes along, although aside from small things it tends to reinforce a general trend.

 

It was worth a shot and its heartening to know that I follow some brain patterns of what the Devs were thinking.

You mean 'match the data'? Yeah. Even if it is unfortunate for some. We - that being Yoda and I, had reccomended a bigger fuze for the R-27 family since we didn't have data on it and we figured it may as well match the Sparrow, and then Chizh broke out the PVO data and oops :P

 

consider their more aggressive motor to be a bit more touched than 'weren't touched a whole lot'. But maybe that's just me. :P

I don't recall if we did anything with the motor, but sure :P We looked to try and match speed/range and time to range.

 

Ya, that's a given.:thumbup:

 

 

I'll PM you the acmi. I haven't built up the effort to script out peoples names. I rared it down to 7megs. You'll find lots of strange things on that acmi. And yes, they are consistent with what the Track was showing..

Cool - if it ends up being a problem, let me know and we'll figure out alternate ways of delivery :)

[tmdgm]

tmdgm,

 

"Notching" is short for using the "Look-Down Clutter Notch". This is caused by how a pulse-doppler radar works to get a look-down shoot-down capability - it has a "notch" in the software that it uses to filter out the ground - if you then move your aircraft such that you are lower than the enemy (or lower than the enemy missile, if it is an active) and move perpendicular to them, you'll have the same relative motion to/from the enemy as the ground under you, and his radar will filter you out as being part of the ground. With good training you can launch your missile, crank, and when the enemy counter-launches you can very quickly pop "into the notch" for just a few seconds and then turn back on the offensive. Active missiles -might- reaqcuire you, but then you just dip back into the notch real quick again or disengage to set up a new and advantageous position.

 

 

so basically notching is just fly perpendicular to missile, dive below it (or plane if semi active)? If so, I think I'm already doing that. I do the barrel roll after when the missile is close. just doesn't seem like notching alone would do it.

[Breakshot]

So, Breakshot, you should just give up and join me with the rest of the nOObs and fly the Fifteenausarus. ;)

 

LoL thanx for the invite, but Ill pass... the 15 was too boring to fly and already immensely effective in FC1 (providing it was used well due to 120s being much weaker). I used to fly it all the time as a testbed of sorts, and IMO all the whining about how bad it was back then was entirely unfounded.

 

But now, in FC2 i think ill just be snoozing half the flight waiting for those 120s TTA count down in TWS... knowing that with so much power and energy with the new "uber-leet 60k ft capable with full payload, btw" engines it really doent take a half decent pilot these days to figure out how to get easy kills...

 

Seriously though, flankers are just that much more rewarding to fly... besides, in a serious team vs team environment these thing wouldn't matter much...

 

Though I wouldn't rule out flying the 15 just for kicks from time to time... if only i had the time to fly more these days... :music_whistling:

[GGTharos]

The notch specifically refers to the doppler notch - ie. positioning yourself such that the offending radar will consider you a part of ground clutter and drop contact.

 

The ingredients are as follows:

- You MUST be at a lower altitude than the offending radar

- You MUST put the offending radar fairly accurately on your 3-9 line

 

This is not always possible nor desireable. If the missile coming at you is relatively low on energy when it gets to you, you can defeat it with an orthogonal roll - it's sort of like a barrel roll, but keep the missile on the 3-9 line as accurately as you can.

 

You can also out-gimbal the missile if it has been launched at a long range and you have very high speed, AND you put it on the 3-9.

 

That's three basic techniques, but where you should START is denying or spoiling the shot to begin with.

 

so basically notching is just fly perpendicular to missile, dive below it (or plane if semi active)? If so, I think I'm already doing that. I do the barrel roll after when the missile is close. just doesn't seem like notching alone would do it.

[Jinro]

That's three basic techniques, but where you should START is denying or spoiling the shot to begin with.

 

How might one deny the shot to begin with if the enemy has a range advantage over you, i.e. MiG31's ridiculously long missile range?

[GGTharos]

Fly in the notch until he gets closer. Don't be on his radar. Use wingmen and a worm approach, or 1v1 use a worm approach.

 

Although this isn't a real description of the worm approach, the idea is notch-peek-notch-peek-notch-peek-notch-peek-fire-Pitbull/Cheapshot-notch.

 

How might one deny the shot to begin with if the enemy has a range advantage over you, i.e. MiG31's ridiculously long missile range?

[Jinro]

Ahah---I manage to do that on occasion. Although, also on occasion I will notch and enemy's missile, and while I'm notching he will somehow be able to spike me on radar and launch another missile.

[GGTharos]

That means you came out of the notch. It's ok, it will happen. You must also consider that your bandit might try to fight you by getting a look-up situation against you, so keep an eye out for that.