Landing / Steering advice

[dnme]

Folks

 

I have been practicing, reading and watching videos on landing. Few questions as follows.....

 

1. When starting your downwind leg, how far downwind should you travel? How is this measured? i.e. is it measured in time or miles?

 

2. When turning onto say your base leg or final, are these 90 degree turns? how do you measure them - do you use the hdg tape on the hud or visual?

 

I see a lot of people talking about turning onto base leg, or final leg etc. But how do you know when to start the turn so as not to overshoot / oversteer etc. I tend to travel too far, then turn and then have to compensate for my mistakes etc.

[Weaponz248]

TACAN or ILS landing? Striaght in or overhead break?

[kylania]

1. No idea what you're talking about. I usually try to be on course to the airfield by about 5nm or so.

 

2. Yup, 90 degree turns from 5nm out or so, though I have been known to do 270 degree turns 2nm out!

 

As you can tell by my answers, I'm a horrible lander! Basically just try to get it close enough and call it good. Got 35 recorded landings so far (vs 51 deaths...) so I'm not the best to ask, but don't worry about being perfect with landing. As you keep practicing and get the basics down, then start to worry about perfect patterns and all that kind of thing.

[dnme]

TACAN or ILS landing? Striaght in or overhead break?

 

Neither TACAN nor ILS, Just coming in manually. I don't know what you mena by "Straight in or overhead break".

Edited November 28, 2010 by dnme

[dnme]

I guess as part of question 1 above, I am also asking, how do we navigate distance?

 

Say I wish to travel 5 miles in a straight line as part of a landing pattern (no waypoints). How do I monitor distance?

 

I'm sure this is the most stupid question I have asked yet and I really apologise

[kylania]

Steerpoints. :) From the UFC press Func then 2 for NAV. Then on the CDU repeater (or CDU) choose Divert. That will list the 6 closest airfields to your current location. Choose one via the OSB to the left of the name. That next page will list the radio frequency for the airfield, hopefully more information but most importantly also set a steerpoint to field.

 

So you can judge distance using that. If your HUD/electronics are out you can use stuff like ILS and TACAN, but I'm still iffy about doing that and only 3 airfields support is currently. So basically, Divert and steerpoint if you don't already have a waypoint for it.

[dnme]

OK

 

Lets say I'm looking at an airport (visual) and I'm approaching it at 90 degrees to runway. I now want to steer into a pattern (90 degree turn to downwind leg, then base leg then final). I'm gonna do all this manually - forget steer points / way points etc

 

Say I decide I would like to do a 3 mile downwind leg for example. How do I know when I have completed 3 miles?

[kylania]

Probably just experience as in "That looks to be about 3 miles out!"? Or time it using the clock? Usually though I think you'd have some kind of navigational fix on the air field that you'd be able to monitor distance with on the HUD, HSI or some other method. Maybe lock it with your TGP! :)

[SFJackBauer]

180 knots = 180 nautical miles per hour.

 

Therefore if you hold that speed, you will travel 3 nautical miles per minute. Easy to measure using a clock :)

[Frederf]

For downwind to final this picture says it all. Look over your shoulder.

 

From my small airplane civil aviation experience the best way to fly the pattern is to use the big clear glass instrument, a.k.a. the window.

 

Upwind should be about the same length as you expect or want your final to be. Usually I'm at 2/3rds or 3/4ths pattern altitude as I turn from upwind to crosswind.

 

From crosswind, turn when the departure end of the runway is 45 degrees over your shoulder.

 

From downwind start descending as you pass the landing end of the runway. When the numbers are over your shoulder at 45 degrees, turn again to base.

 

From base you can see if you are descending too rapidly or slowly by seeing if the runway is appearing to move up or down the window. Most pilots will make a lazy turn from base to final to make sure they don't overshoot the extended runway center line.

 

For square turns it's easiest to glance directly to the side and look at the world for a landmark. When you make the turn keep turning until you are pointed at the landmark. It's faster and more confident than using the instruments plus it lets you keep an eyes out the window.

 

Don't worry about distance too much. If you make a turn from upwind to crosswind, fly crosswind for a short time, and then turn downwind. You'll get as much time on base as you flew crosswind.

[dnme]

For downwind to final this picture says it all. Look over your shoulder.

 

From my small airplane civil aviation experience the best way to fly the pattern is to use the big clear glass instrument, a.k.a. the window.

 

Upwind should be about the same length as you expect or want your final to be. Usually I'm at 2/3rds or 3/4ths pattern altitude as I turn from upwind to crosswind.

 

From crosswind, turn when the departure end of the runway is 45 degrees over your shoulder.

 

From downwind start descending as you pass the landing end of the runway. When the numbers are over your shoulder at 45 degrees, turn again to base.

 

From base you can see if you are descending too rapidly or slowly by seeing if the runway is appearing to move up or down the window. Most pilots will make a lazy turn from base to final to make sure they don't overshoot the extended runway center line.

 

For square turns it's easiest to glance directly to the side and look at the world for a landmark. When you make the turn keep turning until you are pointed at the landmark. It's faster and more confident than using the instruments plus it lets you keep an eyes out the window.

 

Don't worry about distance too much. If you make a turn from upwind to crosswind, fly crosswind for a short time, and then turn downwind. You'll get as much time on base as you flew crosswind.

 

Thanks Frederf

 

But I am now more confused. Upwind ? What is upwind? I have only come across downwind -> base -> final.

 

Also when you say

From crosswind, turn when the departure end of the runway is 45 degrees over your shoulder.

 

then, according to your diagram, as you turn onto base, you also turn onto final.

 

Is there a trick guys to turning onto a heading such as a final approach? Perhaps if I placed it in line with my shoulder as opposed to 45 degrees to my shoulder?

[SFJackBauer]

Upwind is the same as your departure heading.

 

 

By the way, military aircraft often (always?) use the overhead break pattern for landing. A good tutorial using Falcon as reference is located there:

 

http://www.72ndvfw.org/resources/train/OverheadBreak.pdf

[ESzczesniak]

The key to good landings is comfort with the aircraft. Civillian traffic patterns/landing tend to be much more conservative than military and my recommendation would be to start with these as a guideline.

 

In these cases, the default traffic pattern altitude (can be changed specific to the airport) is 1000' AFE (above field elevation). Make 90 degree turns from upwind to crosswind to downind and to base.

 

Your downwind leg should take you 5-6 NM past the touchdown zone before turning to base (you can calculate the exact distance from trigonometry...I'm on beer #6, so I'll defer until tomorrow.).

 

I tend to make my turn from base to final 60 degrees to give me a chance to refine my intercept of the runway centerline. Once established on final your descent angle is 3.0 to 3.5 degrees (depending on runway) and you fly this in to touchdown.

 

As others have stated, this becomes not only second nature, but flown entirely looking outside (i.e. no instruments...other than say AOA indexer). The key is repitition to get a solid sense of what the view outside the window should look like.

 

Once you start to get this view, you'll find you can roll out on final 1-2 NM from touchdown at 300' AFE and nail the landing.

 

My recommendation for getting this feeling? Push yourself to the limits. If you have FSX, fly some full protocol carrier traffic patterns (this really pushes you to fly AOA instead of airspeed...flying off of airspeed is a bad habit). If you don't have FSX, well you can still kind of fly it in DCS.

 

The carrier traffic pattern starts at the initial point that is 3 NM before you touchdown point. You fly over this point at 250 kts and 800' AFE. After passing the touchdown point, you make a 180 degree turn (essentially eliminating your crosswind leg) to your downwind. In this turn you should be slowing to landing speed (and in carrier patterns, dropping the hook) and descending to 600' AFE. When abeam your touchdown point (it is 90 degrees to your left) you should have flaps down and be on AOA for landing at 600' AFE. Approximately 1 NM past the touchdown point (about 3/4 NM for carriers...the carrier moves) you start another 180 degree turn to line up for final (elimiating base(. In this turn you maintain altitude and AOA. As you roll out of the turn you back off the throttle to start your descent around 600-700 fpm towards the runway. Hold this and your lineup until touchdown.

 

Granted, we're not landing on carriers in DCS A-10C, but trying to follow this traffic pattern pushes two points. First, and above all, fly outside the cockpit. This is key to a good landing. Even in IMC, you need to transition to visual by you minimum descent altitude (MDA), decision height (DH), or decisions altitude (DA). That visual picture is key! Additionally, it focuses on flying the approach at a certain AOA. Based on your weight, your landing KIAS will vary, but AOA will stay the same.

 

Once you nail landings within tight tolerances of a carrier break pattern, any other traffic pattern will seem quite easy.

Edited November 28, 2010 by ESzczesniak

[GGTharos]

Read the landing approaches in the A-10C manual. Pick one of THOSE, and only one.

Start practicing it - simply follow the instructions as if it was a checklist, and, if after shooting this approach 3-4 times you're still confused about it, ask more questions. Don't try to collect several sources - practice exactly one type of landing to begin with, from the A-10C manual so everyone who you talk to is on the same page, and after you master than one thing expand from there.

 

Folks

 

I have been practicing, reading and watching videos on landing. Few questions as follows.....

 

1. When starting your downwind leg, how far downwind should you travel? How is this measured? i.e. is it measured in time or miles?

 

2. When turning onto say your base leg or final, are these 90 degree turns? how do you measure them - do you use the hdg tape on the hud or visual?

 

I see a lot of people talking about turning onto base leg, or final leg etc. But how do you know when to start the turn so as not to overshoot / oversteer etc. I tend to travel too far, then turn and then have to compensate for my mistakes etc.

[dnme]

Thanks everyone for the great replies.

 

I think I need to sort out my x52Pro. I use it out of the box (no profile) and I am struggling to fly with any finesse whatsoever. I cant imagine holding a descent at 3-4 degrees. I just chase it up and down.

 

Can anyone recommend a good profile for a beginner, i.e. a forgiving stick?

[nomdeplume]

Are you using a curve at all? On the controls config page, select the "Axis commands" category, then select the table cell for e.g. the roll axis on your stick. Hit the "Axis tune" button at the bottom and you get some more options.

 

I find that a curve of around 24 or so is good for both roll and pitch; but you'll find your own preferred value with experimentation. If you haven't set one at all yet, that's probably a good starting point. Not sure if the x52pro is any more or less sensitive than the x52.

 

What this basically does is reduces the amount of movement of the 'virtual flight stick' in response to movements from your joystick at close to the center position. As you move your stick further, the virtual stick will start to catch up. That way you can more easily make small changes using a not-very-precise stick, without sacrificing the total range of motion you can achieve.

[dnme]

Are you using a curve at all? On the controls config page, select the "Axis commands" category, then select the table cell for e.g. the roll axis on your stick. Hit the "Axis tune" button at the bottom and you get some more options.

 

I find that a curve of around 24 or so is good for both roll and pitch; but you'll find your own preferred value with experimentation. If you haven't set one at all yet, that's probably a good starting point. Not sure if the x52pro is any more or less sensitive than the x52.

 

What this basically does is reduces the amount of movement of the 'virtual flight stick' in response to movements from your joystick at close to the center position. As you move your stick further, the virtual stick will start to catch up. That way you can more easily make small changes using a not-very-precise stick, without sacrificing the total range of motion you can achieve.

 

Many thanks nomdeplume

The whole calibrating / configuring the controller, is another learning requirement of mine. Jeez where to find the time...:cry:

[Frederf]

Read the landing approaches in the A-10C manual. Pick one of THOSE, and only one.

Start practicing it - simply follow the instructions as if it was a checklist, and, if after shooting this approach 3-4 times you're still confused about it, ask more questions. Don't try to collect several sources

 

It's so true. We're all giving flavor advice like farmers with our thumbs hitched behind suspenders with a straw in our teeth. It's most helpful to have some official practices with hard and fast numbers to fly to take the guesswork out of things and once you've mastered an official practice.

 

However the manual couldn't be more bass ackwards, incomplete, and confusing about the layout of landing approach methods. For example a GCA is a ground radar approach where the radar operator talks the pilot down like an LSO on a carrier. It should follow a format like:

 

VISUAL APPROACHES

Straight-in

Standard pattern

Overhead break

INSTRUMENT APPROACHES

TACAN

TACAN-HI

ILS

GCA

One should be able to fly touch and go's by the numbers. The manual doesn't really have all the numbers in the context of a closed circuit.