AD threat unrealistic

[ssgatbliss]

The Air Defense threats in this sim are unrealistic. Not necessarily the way they are situated but in the ranges they fire. I played with the HAWK, PATRIOT, and now the THAAD systems and I can tell you your not getting within 50K of the first two without them locking on you and within 30K they are gonna fire. Any low flying aircraft or aircraft using the terrain for cover will be engaged by SHORAD (Short Range AD such as Stinger/Sentinel/AVENGER/HUMRAAM). Granted the map areas would have to be huge to support this but at least it would be somewhat realistic.

[coldcrew]

You know of this thing called ECM right? And if you're in the mountains you can use terrain for cover

[GGTharos]

ECM only helps this much, because, you know, there's this thing called ECCM and you're pitting an airborne (ie. small) ECM suite vs. a ground-based, practically unrestricted in power and ECCm capability radar. This has been the case for a -long- time. Yes, it degrades performance, but I don't see why you'd expect to get particularely close ;)

 

That said there are some issues with AD; eg. neither Patriots nor SA-10's will engage at maximum range against a high-altitutde, head on, high speed target ... they will engage at close to the same range as a low-altitude aircraft, or at least that has been my impression.

 

Perhaps ED will have a comment on this?

[ssgatbliss]

As an ADA soldier for 13 years I can tell you you will be engaged without blinking at 30K feet 40 kilometers especially if you are high speed and head on, at 20K were gonna punch two missiles off at you because that's considered too close. If you are fast enough the system will engage automatically as you would be seen as a possible HARM or TBM threat. ECM is almost useless against a phased array radar that has final lock on. Ask the US coalition pilots flying in the last IRAQ war who got shot down by PATRIOTS (F-16/F-18). (They were flying outside the return flight corridors, improper IFF codes, and above the speed for the corridor).

 

The FAS site has some good info which is fairly accurate as far as distance and capabilities.

 

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/patriot.htm

[coldcrew]

Of course ECM isn't a magic weapon against SAMs in the game but if you're carrying anti-radar weapons they'll get you close enough to fire them off without getting creamed :)

[D-Scythe]

As an ADA soldier for 13 years I can tell you you will be engaged without blinking at 30K feet 40 kilometers especially if you are high speed and head on, at 20K were gonna punch two missiles off at you because that's considered too close. If you are fast enough the system will engage automatically as you would be seen as a possible HARM or TBM threat.

 

Yeah, that's something I want to see a bit too. One, SAMs launching multiple missiles at you, and two, land-SAMs engaging ARMs.

 

What if the SAM sites in Lock On are leashing their missiles until the target reaches a closer range? It makes sense sometimes to hold fire until the target is within better engagement parameters, and rippling off two missiles for the quick and easy kill.

[169th_DedCat]

As an ADA soldier for 13 years...

 

A question I've always had about Patriot and Grumble class SAMs is just how large and area are these fire units deployed? Is the entire fire unit deployed in a small area in near proximity with each other like it is by default in LOMAC, or are the launching stations deployed over a much wider area spaced away from the STR radar to increase the effective engagement area?

 

I never know in LOMAC if it is more realistic to leave the launchers in close proximity with the STR or space them in an arc extending several kilometres away from it--which makes more sense to me. Can you shed some light on this ssgatbliss?

 

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/55938.pdf

[169th_DedCat]

SAMs engaging ARMs.

 

That would be a great feature to have if it could be implemented somewhat realistically. IMHO ARMs are too much of a magic bullet in LOMAC.

[ssgatbliss]

A question I've always had about Patriot and Grumble class SAMs is just how large and area are these fire units deployed? Is the entire fire unit deployed in a small area in near proximity with each other like it is by default in LOMAC, or are the launching stations deployed over a much wider area spaced away from the STR radar to increase the effective engagement area?

 

I never know in LOMAC if it is more realistic to leave the launchers in close proximity with the STR or space them in an arc extending several kilometres away from it--which makes more sense to me. Can you shed some light on this ssgatbliss?

 

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/55938.pdf

 

 

It depends on the target your defending. When I was at OSAN AFB in Korea we had two units deployed on both sides of the airfield. (Kunsan AFB was the same down south) Now that sounds close and it is but it was still about 3-4KM apart. There was a golf course that goes around the airfield and it was in GOLF magazine as the most guarded golf course in the world.

Usually coverage of the units is overlaping since they don't do a 360 degree search like HAWK did, but the Koreans had manned 4 barrel air defense guns around us (useless with todays aircraft). When we go out and play I would say we are about 20-30K away from each other but again it depends on the mission.

 

Launchers can be quite close to the radar (just out of backblast area) or up to 2KM away via fiber optics or digital over radio, so the launchers can be spread out.

[GGTharos]

Last I heard that range was in fact far greater, if the HUMRAAM's datalink is to be believed.

[Ironhand]

(snipped)

...land-SAMs engaging ARMs.

(snipped)

That was actually something we already had in the original sim "Su-27 Flanker" but was consequently left out of Flanker 2 and, now, Lock On in its various iterations. Sure would like to see it put back in.

 

Rich

[Chizh]

 

That said there are some issues with AD; eg. neither Patriots nor SA-10's will engage at maximum range against a high-altitutde, head on, high speed target ... they will engage at close to the same range as a low-altitude aircraft, or at least that has been my impression.

 

Perhaps ED will have a comment on this?

The maximum range for that SAMs can provide when target’s flight level at 25-27 km. The LOMAC haven’t aircrafts which can fly so highly.

[Chizh]

That was actually something we already had in the original sim "Su-27 Flanker" but was consequently left out of Flanker 2 and, now, Lock On in its various iterations. Sure would like to see it put back in.

 

Rich

May be will be in patch. But I don't promise.

[ssgatbliss]

Last I heard that range was in fact far greater, if the HUMRAAM's datalink is to be believed.

 

 

Classified ranges are even greater than whats published.

[169th_DedCat]

When we go out and play I would say we are about 20-30K away from each other but again it depends on the mission.

 

So spacing the launchers 20 - 30 km away from the STR is realistic in some circumstances?

[GGTharos]

Dedcat,

 

because I feel you're asking this with CAW in mind, I'll put my two cents in:

 

While it is not realistic (IMHO) to deploy your launchers 30km away from their radar, for various reasons (intervening terrain, ECM, blah blah) that would disrupt comms at the least, it IS very realistic to have IADS control several such sites which would be spaced out widely.

 

However, as you know we don't have IADS capability in LOMAC. This is what spacing the launchers out simulates.

[169th_DedCat]

Dedcat, because I feel you're asking this with CAW in mind, I'll put my two cents in:

 

It has nothing to do with CAW GG, I don't know why you'd assume that; I'm asking for my own sake.

[ssgatbliss]

So spacing the launchers 20 - 30 km away from the STR is realistic in some circumstances?

 

 

I'm sorry I didn't specify clear enough. When I said 20-30KM from each other I meant units (with one radar and eight launchers per unit). The launchers can be 1-2 KM apart from the radar.

 

:icon_redf

[169th_DedCat]

I'm sorry I didn't specify clear enough. When I said 20-30KM from each other I meant units (with one radar and eight launchers per unit). The launchers can be 1-2 KM apart from the radar.

 

Cool, thanks... I was a bit confused on that part.