2 vs 2 Strategies for Russian Pilots?

[RIPTIDE]

No, this is a more advanced function like the F-16's SAM that are speaking of - the antenna will track 1 or 2 pre-designated targets by going outside of the search zone periodically. You can also achieve this with datalink or with AESA, but I'm not referring to any of those.

 

All I mean is simply thing: In RL, the antenna tracks your TWS target in elevation and azimuth. You do NOT have to slew the antenna to keep track of the target (ie. not let it fly out of the scan zone). It is automatic.

Ah right, right. ERI mod replicated this somewhat. I confused it with another radar set.

[RIPTIDE]

We turn IC for export.lua off, install ERI, then we fly togheter on the 104th server, and you will see what it means....

 

:thumbup:

Yep, I remember using it before after the start of FC2.0 when it was allowed on some servers for a while. I found it usefull, and it lessened the workload somewhat.

[MoGas]

Yep, I remember using it before after the start of FC2.0 when it was allowed on some servers for a while. I found it usefull, and it lessened the workload somewhat.

 

exactly, until, the evil got caught :megalol:

[Pilotasso]

:huh:

[RIPTIDE]

:huh:

You know what he means... we have long threads here about the 'evil' ERI/leavu. ;)

[Pilotasso]

OK :)

[Cali]

 

Conclusion for Su-27:

In 1vs1: limited choices, forced to dance with fire..with almost the same range as the 120 (only 5km difference) , your ER still needs guidance until impact which ruins completely your extension window. So unless you dodge successfuly the 120's and press/chase, you are condemned.

 

Given the speed difference between those two missiles, there's a relatively 'close in' sweet spot for the 27ER where it will get to the AMRAAM carrier well before the AMRAAM will get to you ... leaving you free to F-Pole and once you see the hit (or you decide it missed) you can go to the notch right away.

 

The ER flies at mach 3.5 and the 120/77 fly about 2.5. That makes a big difference. I have gotten killed and have killed because of the speed difference. Also while the 120 is inbound or you think it is inbound there are moves you can do to bleed it's speed. Same goes for the ER, but it's coming at you much faster. That 5km spread is big when you think about the speed. Russian drivers have to expect a TWS 120 inbound from a certain distance. Most F-15 drivers seem to love to fire at RMax, I don't know why.

[Case]

Let's get this thread back on topic.

 

In the end the best strategy is to have superior teamwork. So you should ensure your operating procedures and comms are well trained and become second nature.

 

Flying last night on 51st server (great server guys!) we had much more success with better use of vertical separation. IT definitely seems to be making the simultaneous engagement harder for the F-15s.

 

Thanks for flying on our server. In the 51st we primarily fly Flankers and train hard on our operating procedures and comms, so feel free to join our TS3 server anytime.

[Adder1606688006]

Thanks for the offer Case! I fly as SHOGUN normally but that name was taken on the forums.

 

 

Cali: When theres no launch warning, and the poor bugger has to keep closing to get his R-77 off, firing a 120 at RMax isn't really a bad thing is it?

[FLANKERATOR]

The ER flies at mach 3.5 and the 120/77 fly about 2.5. That makes a big difference. I have gotten killed and have killed because of the speed difference. Also while the 120 is inbound or you think it is inbound there are moves you can do to bleed it's speed. Same goes for the ER, but it's coming at you much faster. That 5km spread is big when you think about the speed. Russian drivers have to expect a TWS 120 inbound from a certain distance. Most F-15 drivers seem to love to fire at RMax, I don't know why.

 

Even with that speed advantage, you still can not guide the ER until impact without stepping inside the Amraam's NEZ...so at the end of the day that doesn't make any significant difference, you are condemned to deal with the 120 in close range, loosing speed and altitude while at the same time the F-15 is safely extending and building energy for another even more deadly TWS assault.

 

The only way to avoid dancing with the 120 is to have a huge significant altitude advantage before firing the ER, but that makes notching the alamo even easier as the Sukhoi is forced to switch as fast as possible to a radar look-up profile to guide the missile.

 

In regards to 2vs2, fortunately for the russian fighters that ED didn't model the RWS-SAM (Situational Awareness Mode)for the F-15's radar, otherwise the Eagle would have been capable of tracking up to 2 targets (even with Altitude difference!!), while searching for additional contacts at the same time. TMS (Target Management System) is also missing in the F-15.

[Cali]

Thanks for the offer Case! I fly as SHOGUN normally but that name was taken on the forums.

 

 

Cali: When theres no launch warning, and the poor bugger has to keep closing to get his R-77 off, firing a 120 at RMax isn't really a bad thing is it?

 

That's why I said you have to expect a inbound TWS 120, you don't continue to fly head on....that's just asking for trouble. It's not a bad idea to fire the 120 at RMax, but the chance of hitting it's target are very slim, unless your dealing with a noob that flies into the 120. It will make most people go defensive, but experienced pilots may not.

 

Even with that speed advantage, you still can not guide the ER until impact without stepping inside the Amraam's NEZ...so at the end of the day that doesn't make any significant difference, you are condemned to deal with the 120 in close range, loosing speed and altitude while at the same time the F-15 is safely extending and building energy for another even more deadly TWS assault.

 

The only way to avoid dancing with the 120 is to have a huge significant altitude advantage before firing the ER, but that makes notching the alamo even easier as the Sukhoi is forced to switch as fast as possible to a radar look-up profile to guide the missile.

 

In regards to 2vs2, fortunately for the russian fighters that ED didn't model the RWS-SAM (Situational Awareness Mode)for the F-15's radar, otherwise the Eagle would have been capable of tracking up to 2 targets (even with Altitude difference!!), while searching for additional contacts at the same time. TMS (Target Management System) is also missing in the F-15.

 

Read what I wrote above, would you fire a ER and fly straight towards the bandit? Fire, F-pole, maneuver......do the same thing, wait for the missile warning from the TWS 120, watch the RWR, bleed the missile speed. While doing this get another shot off someone in there. Count to at least 30 seconds for the ER, after that or somewhere in that 30 seconds fire another one. The Eagle will always have the advantage in a fight.

[RIPTIDE]

Even with that speed advantage, you still can not guide the ER until impact without stepping inside the Amraam's NEZ...so at the end of the day that doesn't make any significant difference, you are condemned to deal with the 120 in close range, loosing speed and altitude while at the same time the F-15 is safely extending and building energy for another even more deadly TWS assault.

 

This is only true some of the time. There are certain ranges specific to each altitude where a ER will kill you before you have guided a 120 to pitbull AND leaving the flanker with a few just a few manoeuvres to pull away from the now rogue 120. Altitude difference is a sword with two edges... one side where you have greater nominal range with a given missile... the other side though is that while your lower bandits missile has less range, it'll get to its mark fast in lighter air. Much of your longer range is actually meaningless as the missile travels a lot slower in the thicker air long after the motor has burnt. Take an example. You are a two ship F15 30k feet. 2 noob bandits 20 miles away. same heading towards you. One is 40,000 feet, the other is 4,000 feet. You take the shot at the 40k and your wingy takes the shot at the 4,000 feet same time. Who dies first? ;)

[104th_Crunch]

Don't forget the use of ECM to deny the F-15 the use of TWS before burn through. It helps greatly.

 

Good pointers by Pilo, Flankerator and Frostie here!

[Pilotasso]

The reason why people feel the AMRAAM out ranges the ER (which it does not) is because the flankers almost always flying low. Time to change tactics, no? :)

[RIPTIDE]

The reason why people feel the AMRAAM out ranges the ER (which it does not) is because the flankers almost always flying low. Time to change tactics, no? :)

Bingo! :thumbup:

[FLANKERATOR]

@ Pilo n Cali : Never said the 120 out ranges the ER, nor I fly low on the Su.

What I said is : Even with that speed advantage, you still can not guide the ER until impact without stepping inside the Amraam's NEZ.

 

@ Riptide: True, and that's another way to illustrate how useless trying to get higher than the eagle can be.

[Pilotasso]

AMRAAM NEZ is only 10 miles, your saying you cannot shoot beyond that? :huh:

[FLANKERATOR]

Of course you can. Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough:

 

What I meant is that you can not fire an ER guide it for the entire Time Of Flight and still make a U-turn and outruns the 120. (same pilot level)

[RIPTIDE]

Of course you can. Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough:

 

What I meant is that you can not fire an ER guide it for the entire Time Of Flight and still make a U-turn and outruns the 120. (same pilot level)

But you can.. It happens everyday. Like I said... at certain ranges depending on altitude, you can make an ER kill and still get away.

[Pilotasso]

yes, whenever I can perceive that Im being shot at from a high flanker and he fired first, only good thing to do is to extend. :)

[FLANKERATOR]

Yes guys, am very aware it's possible in theory under certain fight configuration, still the F-15 pilot is more than capable of denying you that if he wanted to. lets say:

Both fighters are at same altitude (we know speed doesn't matter for range in fc2), the Su is firing first at 80% Rmax then crancks, dont tell me that the F15 is enable to fire shortly after that, crancks, waits for "pitbull" before extending??

[GGTharos]

Actually at that range with both fighters cranking, neither missile will reach its target IIRC.

[RIPTIDE]

Yes guys, am very aware it's possible in theory under certain fight configuration, still the F-15 pilot is more than capable of denying you that if he wanted to. lets say:

Both fighters are at same altitude (we know speed doesn't matter for range in fc2), the Su is firing first at 80% Rmax then crancks, dont tell me that the F15 is enable to fire shortly after that, crancks, waits for "pitbull" before extending??

My guess is that the 120 goes "pitbull" and is so slow that the Su-27 can gimble it to death without much effort. Too dangerous. Meanwhile his ER has got very close to you. If he fires at 80% and cranks... and you then fire a 120, you must be very close to Rmax or even outside it. dangerous because he won't extend and keep pushing. THIS is a mistake that is made everyday.

[FLANKERATOR]

@GG: IIRC?

 

@Riptide : Agreed once again, but at this configuration , can the Flanker guide the ER all the way in and still just extend and out runs the 120?

[RIPTIDE]

@GG: IIRC?

 

@Riptide : Agreed once again, but at this configuration , can the Flanker guide the ER all the way in and still just extend and out runs the 120?

He won't be outrunning anything. The 120 will go pitbull but at such slow speed that it won't go near the flanker since he's already cranking. i guess that he will see it at 9-10 o clock on SPO, and watch it fall back to 7-8 o clock and fall from the sky. This is dangerous now, as he can still press. He does not need to loose lock. He can remain offensive. The ER will come maybe a little closer but fall from the sky also if the F-15 turns away to extend or even if he just continue cranking. This is why you should avoid Rmax shot its just waste.:) Such is the power of F-pole.

 

EDIT: "IIRC" means "If I Remember Correctly"

Edited February 13, 2011 by RIPTIDE