2 vs 2 Strategies for Russian Pilots?

[FLANKERATOR]

He won't be outrunning anything. The 120 will go pitbull.

 

This is what I meant Riptide :)

 

Of course that even if the Su is forced to deal with the 120's in close, there are chances to defeat successfully the missile especially if the eagle fires close to Rmax...or NOT :D

 

Thanks for "IIRC"!

[Cali]

As far as I know, all missiles have the same burn time.....around 7 seconds. The ER is much faster then the 120 and gives a warning once fired. So the bandit knows when it's fired and how far away it was fired from. With the 120, in 99% of the cases the bandit has no idea when it was fired. They just get the warning that they have a few seconds before it's suppose to hit. with the ER's, you can fire at RMax or even before RMax, that will make the bandit panic and fire a 120 or turn away and run. If he does panic and fire a 120, he may not support it long enough for it to guide to you. Once again you shouldn't fly directly towards him/it like you were. Pilots are always changing their course, they don't fly in a straight line when in enemy territory.

 

Last month in the 104th stats I went 12 and 1 in the Su-33. With 7 of those kills on F-15's 3xER's, 3xET's and 1 73. It can be done but it's a lot harder to do. I expect a TWS 120 shot coming in from around 20nm if the guy is up high. Some good tactics are to beam, go cold for a few, then recommit and see where he is at. Don't overextend yourself and have good SA.

 

EDIT: The 120 isn't a kill everything within 10nm. I have seen a 120 fired from around 5-8 thousand feet up at bandits 15k feet higher and around 10nm or less miss, same goes to other missiles. The game isn't perfect and neither are real life missiles, they screw up also.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Cali

[RIPTIDE]

 

Last month in the 104th stats I went 12 and 1 in the Su-33.

I thought, you told me, you suck. You lie to me! :lol:

[Pilotasso]

You guys doing this assuming solo head to head engagements. Attack on your own terms and preferably with wingmen, and shoot when the enemy can do little about any warning given. :)

[FLANKERATOR]

You guys doing this assuming head to head engagements. Attack on your own terms, and shoot when the enemy can do little about any warning given. :)

 

+1. The above discussion was about raw 1on1 scenario, thanks God Multiplayer offers way more scenarios and options, just like the real thing :)

[Cali]

You guys doing this assuming solo head to head engagements. Attack on your own terms and preferably with wingmen, and shoot when the enemy can do little about any warning given. :)

 

I do this with no wingman sometimes also. In multiplayer people are coming in from all over the place and at different altitudes. So....sometimes you get lucky and catch a guy by surprise.

[Adder1606688006]

Well of course a pilot should always be trying to force an engagement on his terms, however sooner or later you and your wingman will run into two opponents coming straight at you, and having to disengage because you are unprepared for such a scenario would be a very sad thing indeed!

 

What are peoples thoughts on payloads for the Mig-29S? It seems that 4x R-77 + 2x R-73 + Fuel is the order of the day, or even 6x R-77, however I wonder if something like this could be useful:

 

R-77 R-77 R-27ER Fuel R-27ET R-77 R-77

 

I'm thinking the extra range of the ER over an AMRAAM (maybe even one launched over RMax :thumbup:) putting an F-15 on the defensive could provide a window for a successful R-77 folluw-up shot without eating an AMRAAM.

 

Is this a "realistic" payload for a Mig-29S? I know there are payload editing programs but I don't want to use a load that isn't approved for multi-player use (like 77s on an Su-27 for example).

 

Or is losing the R-73s too big a sacrifice given that WVR combat is perhaps the area in which the Russian aircraft have the advantage?

[FLANKERATOR]

Well of course a pilot should always be trying to force an engagement on his terms, however sooner or later you and your wingman will run into two opponents coming straight at you, and having to disengage because you are unprepared for such a scenario would be a very sad thing indeed!

 

What are peoples thoughts on payloads for the Mig-29S? It seems that 4x R-77 + 2x R-73 + Fuel is the order of the day, or even 6x R-77, however I wonder if something like this could be useful:

 

R-77 R-77 R-27ER Fuel R-27ET R-77 R-77

 

I'm thinking the extra range of the ER over an AMRAAM (maybe even one launched over RMax :thumbup:) putting an F-15 on the defensive could provide a window for a successful R-77 folluw-up shot without eating an AMRAAM.

 

Is this a "realistic" payload for a Mig-29S? I know there are payload editing programs but I don't want to use a load that isn't approved for multi-player use (like 77s on an Su-27 for example).

 

Or is losing the R-73s too big a sacrifice given that WVR combat is perhaps the area in which the Russian aircraft have the advantage?

 

Am not sure you will be able to use this exact payload IIRC, however here are some considerations to think about:

 

- Your fuel consumption and aircraft performances will be affected with that extra weight, therefore your ability to defend against inbound missiles and your autonomy in a CAP.

 

- You can not use the R-27ER in a MiG the same way you use it in a Su. because of the less powerful MiG radar you will most probably wont be able to take the first shot.

 

- Thinking that you can put an experienced F-15 pilot on the defensive and chase him because of an early ER shot is not wise IMO. he can still notch it easily, break your lock, and fires back AMRAAM's.

 

I think that the best compromise between Fire power and aircraft performance in a MiG is 4 X R77 + 2 X R73 + 1 fuel tank.

 

ET's are a good choice but only for rear aspect opportunities, forcing you to carry them as a handicap during the whole BVR head-on engagement.

[Adder1606688006]

- You can not use the R-27ER in a MiG the same way you use it in a Su. because of the less powerful MiG radar you will most probably wont be able to take the first shot.

 

Hmmm I had completely overlooked this, thanks!

 

What about using Home on Jam launches to overcome this? I have had 0 success in the past with HOJ, does anyone really use it?

[RIPTIDE]

 

R-77 R-77 R-27ER Fuel R-27ET R-77 R-77

 

I'm thinking the extra range of the ER over an AMRAAM (maybe even one launched over RMax :thumbup:) putting an F-15 on the defensive could provide a window for a successful R-77 folluw-up shot without eating an AMRAAM.

 

Is this a "realistic" payload for a Mig-29S? I know there are payload editing programs but I don't want to use a load that isn't approved for multi-player use (like 77s on an Su-27 for example).

 

Or is losing the R-73s too big a sacrifice given that WVR combat is perhaps the area in which the Russian aircraft have the advantage?

Yep. There are quite a few MigRats that use that exact payload.

[GGTharos]

HoJ is so low Pk it's typically a wasted shot. You're basically relying on the bandit to fly into your missile.

 

Hmmm I had completely overlooked this, thanks!

 

What about using Home on Jam launches to overcome this? I have had 0 success in the past with HOJ, does anyone really use it?

[RIPTIDE]

HoJ is so low Pk it's typically a wasted shot. You're basically relying on the bandit to fly into your missile.

A HoJ shot that turns into a guided shot can be lethal though. ;)

[GGTharos]

Yeah, if you can get the timing right. But it isn't what it used to be in FC1, at least for F-15s.

[Adder1606688006]

Timing as in launching at a point that allows you to achieve burn-through soon enough after launch for the missile to track in SARH mode before going active?

 

 

Heres another question: Is it possible to launch a 77 without a target lock? If so, after how long does the seeker go active? Assuming a 60 degree scancone (iirc this is the case), the seeker will cover a 14km radius circle at 25km (iirc this is the seeker range?), which is pretty decent. I imagine a maddog'd 77 would take most F-15 pilots by suprise.

[GGTharos]

Actually back in FC1 where F-15 HoJ launches were silent, the best way was to time it such that burn through was achieved a few seconds before impact.

 

In FC2 this is also possible, but much trickier due to the longer range of burn through and the warning that the target gets.

 

And yes, you can launch an R-77 without a lock but it will just stare straight ahead. It won't 'look' for a target, so unless an aircraft crosses its path it's a wasted shot. And really, you don't want to see the AMRAAM maddogging that was happening before. You think your idea is nifty? Wait until you see an F-15 filling the sky with AMRAAMs such that you cannot go anywhere without getting picked up ... so, no, those missiles no longer work this way (nor do they work this way in RL).

 

Finally, once you start throwing maddogs around like this, people stop being surprised by them, not to mention they start doing the same thing to you. Tricks are neat, but they only supplement, not replace, basic compat procedures and skills/profficiencies.

Edited February 14, 2011 by GGTharos

[Adder1606688006]

And yes, you can launch an R-77 without a lock but it will just stare straight ahead. It won't 'look' for a target, so unless an aircraft crosses its path it's a wasted shot.

 

Whats the scan-cone for the missile when its in "stare straight ahead" mode? My thinking is not in terms of take-off, reach periphery of combat zone, maddog all my 77s, RTB, mission complete :pilotfly: but for launching on an identified and located target without giving a warning.

 

 

And really, you don't want to see the AMRAAM maddogging that was happening before. You think your idea is nifty? Wait until you see an F-15 filling the sky with AMRAAMs such that you cannot go anywhere without getting picked up ... so, no, those missiles no longer work this way (nor do they work this way in RL).

 

Well nearly every Eagle pilot seems to be firing in TWS mode, so it feels rather like that for me now anyway!

 

How does this work in RL? Oh how I long for DCS: Mig-29 vs F-16 :(

[GGTharos]

It's 6-10 deg. And yeah, you're not the only one who has through of that. Crap shoot, just like in RL, unless you plan it really well.

 

F-16 has a similar advantage over most MiG-29 models, too.

[Boberro]

As far as I know, all missiles have the same burn time.....around 7 seconds. The ER is much faster then the 120 and gives a warning once fired. So the bandit knows when it's fired and how far away it was fired from. With the 120, in 99% of the cases the bandit has no idea when it was fired. They just get the warning that they have a few seconds before it's suppose to hit. with the ER's, you can fire at RMax or even before RMax, that will make the bandit panic and fire a 120 or turn away and run.

 

Well, you can make assumption using precisely Beryoza.

Just watch it and look how fast lamps of range are turning on :)

If they turn on fast, you can estimate enemy fired missile quite close.

[Cali]

Please don't talk about the maddogs back in FC1, I still have nightmares about them.

 

@ Bob, that works for 120/77, not for the semi-actives. People are starting to get smart and launching in pairs....you get what I'm saying...

[Adder1606688006]

So a 77 followed by a 27 ER Cali? Sounds promising. Going to test this out tonight!

[104th_Crunch]

So a 77 followed by a 27 ER Cali? Sounds promising. Going to test this out tonight!

 

What Cali means is a R-77/AIM-120 followed by another missle, SAHR or AHR. That way the target will look at his RWR for a range and it will show the first missile. If he does the last second dodge on the first missile unrealistically using the RWR, then the second missle is there for a nasty surprise.

[Cali]

Actually Crunch, Adder was right, but either way I would follow up with another missile within a certain amount of time after the first. This is a tactic that the USAF pilots were/are taught. Alway follow up with a second "miss" ile, That is a problem that a lot of people get confused with. They think that 1 will kill a bandit all the time. In real life missiles miss, they do the same thing in FC2. Sometimes it takes more then 1 to kill a bandit. 1 isn't the magic BB all the time.

[GGTharos]

It isn't, but the USAF does seem to have shifted doctrine from 'shoot shoot look' with sparrows to 'shoot look shoot' with slammers.

[Cali]

It isn't, but the USAF does seem to have shifted doctrine from 'shoot shoot look' with sparrows to 'shoot look shoot' with slammers.

 

What I read was shoot shoot look with a slammer. I'll see if I can find out if it's still the same way now.

[GGTharos]

That would be useful, thanks. They may have done so with older slammers, or gone back-and-forth. Or maybe it even depends on the target itself.