BVR in 1.1... is, uh, Different!

[Dammerung]

I've been flying the Su-27 a lot more in 1.1, with the Added features and all. One thing I immediately noticed is that almost all Bandits use ECM. I don't know what's going on, but they're either burning through much farther away or using HOJ shots. I figure the latter, because the F-16 and F-15 will both fire at the same time. One thing that's really bugged me is missile performance, specifically the R-27RE. For the most part, I wait until I hit the 25km mark before I shoot, then either break off and keep my radar locked, or barrel roll. Honestly, It doesn't seem to matter what I do, the damn thing always misses. An AIM-7 fired at max range just about always hits me(Lets say 35km). I close another 10km and fire, and mine clearly misses, and I get whacked by the same Sparrow. Should I try more HOJ shots? Or is there something else I'm doing wrong?

 

Another thing, how do you evade a SARH missile? Whenever I'm up against the R-77, AIM-120, or MICA AR, I've been using the RWR to dodge it. But with SARH missiles you get no launch warning until the thing is half a second away from impact. And it's impossible to see an aircraft in Lomac at 2km, so a missile at 5 is out of the question. I watched the 'snaking' tutorial, and the instructor dodges AIM-7s, but It didn't work for me.

 

Now that Lomac is playable, I'd like to actually spend some time getting almost proficient, now that I can get around 30fps. Any advice would be much appreciated. For now, all I can do is try and survive to the merge, where the R-73/Helmet Sight and Guns eat all comers for breakfast...

[GGTharos]

First of all, turn off your jammer. You get so little warning because your jammer's on.

 

Secondly, learn to F-Pole - extend the distance the enemy missile must fly.

 

Third, launch from high (13000m+) at long range, then F-Pole and hold the lock - re-attack as necessary. If they're jamming, a high altitude launch might work anyway.

 

Fourth, the AI cheats, period. Burn-through online is equal between player planes.

 

Fifth. At the right time, chaff. LOTS of chaff. Won't work if you're head on witht he missile so again ... F-Pole. And dive. Diving cuts the enemy missile's range.

[Dammerung]

Aha. Cheating AI, just like in Il-2, with a Zero pulling 20gs at 600kph.

 

Honestly, I never really liked F-Pole, is there any other effective way? It never seems to work, even if I shoot first with a faster missile. I turn my Jammer off as soon as I'm within shooting range...

[D-Scythe]

On the opposite end of the tactical spectrum, if you can master barrel rolling, there is the option to just bet everything on that. As GG mentioned, the AI cheats, and is able to dodge missiles a lot easier than players can. Just leave your ECM off, and try to position yourself in such a way that you can shoot your bandit (without him shooting back) with either a R-27ER/ET or R-73.

 

In a Su-27 vs. F-16 type threat, evade (barrel roll or otherwise) his first missile BVR. Then wait a few minutes, then pickle off an Alamo before rolling around his second missile. Chances are, you'll have your nose pointed roughly in his direction, and if the target is not destroyed, it is probably engaged defensive because of your first shot. Take your time to get into a good position for a shot, and the instant your missile misses, fire off another missile (either a radar/IR Alamo or Archer).

 

Against two or more bandits, with no wingmen, this can become a bit tricky, but I find it that I can save a few more missiles this way because they don't miss as much from the closer range. Generally, GG's F-poling method keeps you safer - you can pump or extend away from the fight anytime you want - but barrel rolling is a lot more lethal, and can get you into a knife-fight type situation where you can exploit the Flanker's agility and Archer missiles.

 

Oh, and leave your jammers off until you get a launch warning. Then turn it on. That way, you get both the ECM and the launch warnings.

[GGTharos]

Aha. Cheating AI, just like in Il-2, with a Zero pulling 20gs at 600kph.

 

Honestly, I never really liked F-Pole, is there any other effective way? It never seems to work, even if I shoot first with a faster missile. I turn my Jammer off as soon as I'm within shooting range...

 

 

That's a somewhat silly statement ... F-Pole is a -real- tactic and its very effective. It can be difficultt o pull off correctly, abut with the 27 you're the one with the long sticks, so you should do it all the more especially when attacking aircraft like the 16 and 15 which are carrying AMRAAMs.

 

F-Pole is the SIMPLEST effective maneuver you can do, and almost everything else builds on it.

 

You -cannot- decoy radar missiles head-on, you MUST turn away, so why not do it right away and make the enemy's missile travel longer? No wonder you're getting killed when you're barreling right into the enemy missile and it smacks you before yours is even half way to the target.

[GGTharos]

On the opposite end of the tactical spectrum, if you can master barrel rolling, there is the option to just bet everything on that. As GG mentioned, the AI cheats, and is able to dodge missiles a lot easier than players can. Just leave your ECM off, and try to position yourself in such a way that you can shoot your bandit (without him shooting back) with either a R-27ER/ET or R-73.

 

Righto, but then again, AI cheat :P So let's assume this is not the case.

 

In a Su-27 vs. F-16 type threat, evade (barrel roll or otherwise) his first missile BVR. Then wait a few minutes, then pickle off an Alamo before rolling around his second missile. Chances are, you'll have your nose pointed roughly in his direction, and if the target is not destroyed, it is probably engaged defensive because of your first shot. Take your time to get into a good position for a shot, and the instant your missile misses, fire off another missile (either a radar/IR Alamo or Archer).

 

Minor...maybe major point of disagreement. Don't take your time. KNOW what a good shot is and take it right away. In the absence of a good shot opportunity, take a bad one. The moment you allow him off a defensive posture he'll turn aroudn and whack you. The AI is -very- predictable and very agressive in this manner. People online behave differently on average (reaction times typically slower)

 

Against two or more bandits, with no wingmen, this can become a bit tricky, but I find it that I can save a few more missiles this way because they don't miss as much from the closer range. Generally, GG's F-poling method keeps you safer - you can pump or extend away from the fight anytime you want - but barrel rolling is a lot more lethal, and can get you into a knife-fight type situation where you can exploit the Flanker's agility and Archer missiles.

 

Yep, but barrel rolling will get you killed unless you do it -exactly- right, and if you lose sight of the wingman (you will. Don't believe me? Try it) he'll just smack you when you cmoe out of the roll to look for him. Or you'll be too scared to exit the roll and fly into the ground, or get tired of it only to realize you've allowed the wingnut on your tail.

 

Barrely rolling works if you time it and execute it perfectly, and yes, it -is- very lethal, but it has zero tolerance for error. The F-Pole is far more effective in giving you options.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with D-Scythe's statement, I'm saying that the barrel rolling technique demands perfection, and works in very specific circumstances. F-Pole works for pretty much all BVR fights. Worse yet, if you barrel roll your way through the first guy, and are left with the wingnut and you merge...you sucked up all yoru pilot's stamina in the barrel roll, so now you'll black out from a combination of potentially uncontrolled speeding and the desire to out-turn the bandit with a weak pilot.

 

Oh, and leave your jammers off until you get a launch warning. Then turn it on. That way, you get both the ECM and the launch warnings.

 

Absolutely ... but keep in mind that the missile's coming at you silently and may well smack you unexpectedly. More than one person has fallen prey to forgetting their ECM on only to realize that the bloody thing guides even after you've rolled out nice and level to bask in the glory of shooting down your opponent ;)

[Dammerung]

When I Barrel Roll, I dont get whacked. It's all that has ever worked for me. Against two Amraam wielding Fighters I can usually get close enough for an Archer shot. F Pole I ALWAYS get whacked. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Watched Ironhand's tutorial on it probably a million times, even do the exact same thing he does but the missiles magically find their mark unless I either Barrel roll or break off 30/40 Degrees and evade AMRAAMs with the RWR. Too bad this doesnt work with SAHR Missiles.

[D-Scythe]

If you F-pole correctly, you should never get whacked, and it should work *especially* for SARH missiles - that's one of the main points of F-poling, that your missile gets there first. Are you diving while F-poling? It does help, because missiles have a harder time at lower altitudes because of denser air - slows them down more quickly. And against the AI, when you F-pole, always make sure if it comes down to it, you can get off a return shot BEFORE he does. Actually, try to keep him defensive as much as possible, even if it means wasting a missile. As GG said, the AI is also very aggressive - you may F-pole his first two missiles, but if he gets off a third (especially an active radar/IR one), you've done something seriously wrong.

 

Generally, use F-pole at longer ranges, where you can easily defeat missiles kinematically and save up on your chaff. As GG mentioned, it also gives you better situational awareness, and you can escape at anytime. However, in conditions where SA is not relevent (e.g. 1 vs.1), and you want to close the range up for whatever reason (maybe you only have Archers), use barrel rolling. The great thing about it is that it works no matter what the range is. But it helps if you have wingmen, computer or human, to loose a few BVRAAMs to keep the bandits defensive so you have some time to re-orient yourself, gain some SA, once you come out of a barrel roll.

 

You can also use a combination of the two - like F-pole the first missile at long range, and barrel roll the second at closer range, etc.

 

Barrely rolling works if you time it and execute it perfectly, and yes, it -is- very lethal, but it has zero tolerance for error. The F-Pole is far more effective in giving you options.

 

I was just giving him another option ;) Personally, I use both, depending on the situation.

[MBT]

What is the nature of the AI's cheating? Is it bat turns, or extra long range missiles, or all-seeing radar? The bat turns were a big IL2 turn off for me.

[enigma6584]

And remember to practice, practice, practice. Don't get frustrated because it just takes time to become proficient at this. I'm still not. :)

 

I would also recommend you take a look at the excellent tutorials at Ironhand's site. Also, there is an excellent F-Pole video put out by one of ruggbutt's cronies but you'll have to look for it because I cannot for the life of me remember where it is.

 

Be patient and practice, this sim has the uncanny ability to eventually teach you the proper combat flight operations...and it is fun! :D

[Pilotasso]

Dammerung: you will never have tryed true BVR in 1.1 untill you've donne it online. The funny thing is that I'm having just the opposite difficulties as you did. Wich brings me to the same question I brought up at UBI's forums. And I quote myself:

 

"Im surprised you didnt complain about western missiles perfomance degradation. ED says 50% is the most realistic, but either the chaff efecteviness is being over-modelled or the russian missiles are uberized. I think its a combo of both. AMRAAM is smarter than that to be fooled that easely by chaff. Its supposed to be very tough against it. As oposed to R-27 missile types. Anyone will porbably contest its poor perfomance IRL was due to the difference russian fighter model standards in service with each country that went at war with them. But the record at Ethiopia-Eritrea war shatters that theory because fighters on both sides were surplus of russian inventory and they were of the same standard. yet no R-27 missile actualy hit.

 

This Idea is reinforced by 2 frustrating online war stories I have. They hapened over at Jabog32 server. They have blackouts at maximum and missiles at 50%. being yet "uneducated" to 1.1 addon I was pretty untrained about western missile effecteviness under these conditions.

 

So I took off with my usual load of 6 AMRAAM's+2 Sparrows. As usual I climbed high to fly over my enemies radar view cones. I noticed how huge they are now and enemy spikes forced me for a long range beam course on them. I was on blue side (base near those lakes, remenber?) and flying arround past the mountains I reached within 20 miles angels 35 from their base folowing the coast line after the detour I took form the usual flight lines.

At 15 miles I lighted up my radar and picked up literaly half a dozen bogies immidiatly. At 10 miles I made a sharp dive with 4 tragets locked on and fired a salvo of missiles. All missed! Fired 2 more AMRAAM's at 5 miles, again hit nothing but ground. I was getting really annoyed, I swiched over to the sparrows and fired them at 1 single target from his 6 o'clock, the missiles did a simple lag porsuit and flew under the target! Now I was mad, but the worst was yet to come as that same plane (flown by 169th ICE) just flew a half loop up and sent a R-77 frontaly wich scored a perfect direct hit despite my best efforts to dodge it.

 

I rested for 15 seconds wondering, what the hell did I do wrong!! Perfect tactical positioning for the shot, total surprise, what laked was the missiles to deliver!

 

The second time I flew the same flight path except this time I dropped sharply from angels 35 right into the valeys sorrounding red base in the hopes I would surprise someone flying over the mountain tops...wich I did. At 10 miles 2 contacts bliped and I locked them both. They didnt manage to pick me up right away as they probably were scanning too high over the mountain top I was flying behind. At 5 miles fired 2 AMRAAM's both fly past their targets. Both fighter fly by me dumping countermeasures I make a loop and catch 1 of them against the ground. Given the high speed we had at the beggining of the engagement our relative altitudes became considerable and more than enough for a missile shot. Fired 2 AMRAAM's at that same target. Both impacted on the ground again.

I fly to his 6 and fired a sparrow. Again it does a lag porsuit and flyes past him from underneath. After all this, several other red fighters join the furball and Im forced to hit the deck and light up my burners. I make several twist tunrs across the valeys hopping any IR missile to hit mountains. But soon 1 of the many porsuing fighters shoots me an R-77 from 3 o'clock high and right on the first shot he hits me even though I had time to empty my entire chaff load into the atmosphere!

 

Again total tactical surpise, but ended up chewed up like a pig in a pool full of piranas..."

[Kula66]

Pilotasso, I've got to say that online I've had no real trouble with the 15 ... against the AI its a different story ... as it easily dodges 120s by the perfect application of chaff/dodging. I do nothing special/clever - get to 40k, launch at 15miles, then split S and run!

From what I've read so far, the 77 is modelled with nearly identical parameters to a 120 ... so 29 v 15 usually ends in mutual destruction! Dumping chaff is an only half the problem, you have to get the chaff between you and the missile ... from head on it is usless!

[Pilotasso]

I did not said it hapened all the time. Depends on each server settings. Im having a REAL hard time adjusting to 1.1 because of highest G effects in the game wich make text book evasion manuevers unviable. But thats discussed in another topic in another thread. Allied with bugs on the F-15 such as HOJ giving a warning my options are further reduced, and that contributed to those 2 stories I told. Another reason is, in 1.02 I used to time things like missile warnings right from lauch of the rail. I could tell how far it was and judge if I could turn to fire back or run. Now I get hit with like 2 seconds warning or none at all. I dunno if this is fully correct or if theres further bugs with this, but now Im required to completely re-adjust. Im not sure how ECM should play a part in this. ECM is one of the things that I havent read much about.

[Nomad]

I think Chizh said somewhere that R-77 and aim-120 have exactly the same modeling in game except for range, which is 10% bigger for the R-77. So you probably did a mistake somewhere.

 

 

2 topic starter:

Try playing online, I'd say training with AI is bad for your skills because its so predicable. When you learn all the tricks it uses you will beat it, but once you get online it will be a nasty surprise seeing that many people do thing you don't expect.

 

 

And yeah Sukhois rule the 1vs1 BVR now especially if the F-15 is using a more realistic payload (usually a mix of aim-7, aim-120 and a couple of 9's, 8 amraams setup is just too evil). But try fighting 2 or 3 foes and suddenly its not so hot at all.

 

 

 

EDIT: I found the message where Chizh said that amraams and R-77 are equal.

http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=7007&page=6&pp=10&highlight=R-77+amraam+equal

scroll down to chizh's message.